Dev To Dev S01 E06 - Leamon Tuttle

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Dev to Dev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. I'm Alex Solman once again back here still trying to figure out the hosting gig. This is a few episodes in, but I'm still figuring it out, so please give me some grace if I make a few bumbles. But this time I'm excited for another conversation with another friend and ex colleague. Leeman, please introduce yourself. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Hey, yeah, I'm Lehman Tuttle. I am the former lore master for ZeniMax Online Studios, big multiplayer video game. And prior to that, I was the Lore Master for the Elder Scrolls Online. [00:00:39] Speaker A: That's right, yes. Yeah. Thanks, Leemon, thank you for your time. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I'm excited to dig into this. You've got a very interesting role and it's been an interesting time working together, even though we're not anymore. But yeah, I'm excited to learn history. So I always like to start this conversation with my. My favorite first question. What first got you inspired about video games? [00:01:04] Speaker B: Oh, God. So, yeah, I'm, I'm in my 40s, I'm an old timer, so I remember I got my, My folks got me the Nintendo, the NES Classic, and it came with a golden Zelda cartridge. And like, that was, that was my, that was my gateway. And yeah, I just loved it from the start. My old classic nes. And yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's where, that's where I got my start. And then as you know, the medium evolved, just got more and more excited about it as things went along. And yeah, that's, that's how we got here. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Love it. Right? So original nes, the classic Zelda, Zelda cartridges. And, and what was it about that that really caught your imagination and your attention? [00:01:55] Speaker B: It's tough to. I don't know, it's tough to say. I always had a big imagination as a kid. You know, I always did a lot of, you know, playing pretend or whatever. And I think that video games allowed you to pretend. It's kind of like assisted pretending at that age. You know, you can run around in the yard with a stick and pretend it's a sword or whatever. But know, video games, at least for me at that age, it was a cool opportunity to sort of, you know, pretend under the bright lights and be like, okay, I'm. I really am like a little guy running around fighting goblins and ogres and all sorts of stuff. And so that just really appealed to me also, you know, I Was. I was an artist, you know, once. Once, a long time ago. And I remember the old NES cartridges that came with that, like, really tight, like 2D art, like the Mega Mans and the, you know, Zeldas. And it like had this really sweet artwork. And so that made it even though, like, you know, the graphics were very, very rudimentary. Then, you know, again, you could imagine you, like, see the pictures of Link and Zelda and you're like, oh, okay, so this is what they're going for. But yeah, I think it's just. It was a combination of just being an imaginative kid and looking for opportunities to kind of flex that imagination in a more structured way. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. So the nes, you know, inspired by the NES and the artwork, et cetera. Where did this happen? Where did you grow up? What kind of area were you growing up in? [00:03:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I grew up in. It's a place called Laurel, Maryland. It's a, you know, small. At the time, it was kind of like a small blue collar city in, outside of D.C. and yeah, it was in a little townhouse development. I enjoyed, you know, that part of my life. It was fun. My dad was a postal worker, my mom worked in an office. And yeah, it was. I have three siblings, so, you know, things were, things were a little tight here and there, but I enjoy, I enjoyed it. Had a, you know, pretty, pretty happy upbringing at that, at that time. [00:03:59] Speaker A: That's cool. So three siblings. Were they also gamers? Did they. Were they kind of following your video game passion or. [00:04:06] Speaker B: No, all of them are older because they're all from a previous marriage on my mother's side. So the closest to me was nine years ahead. The other two, I mean, my brother eventually sort of got into games, but at the time, you know, that generational disconnect, like, they, they had played like their buddies, Atari once or twice or whatever, but it was not like they weren't at the ground floor of like video games as we sort of understand them now, you know. So I remember my brother, he used to joke about, you know, I'd say, hey, you want to play video game? And he's like, is it one of those run and jump games? And I'm like, what does that even mean? He's like, you know the one where you're on there and you got to jump to a platform? He's like, I know, I can't deal with that. And I was like, yeah, you know, so like platformers were not, were not his bag. But my sister, she did, the one, she did get into, she Was really into Legend of Zelda. She would play that a lot. But now none of them really play much anything. My brother, again, you know, one, you know, every so often he'll play a little something. But video games is very much the purview of me and Me and mine. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So you were kind of the primary gamer in the house, I guess, and other than some dabbling from family. Interesting. So what about friends? You know, kind of in that area. Was there a lot of gaming culture around you? Was it just you? Like, how did that. Maybe when you went to school, did that start change? How did that go? [00:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah, so we moved around a little bit. And then the house that my parents still own, that's where I met, like my lifelong friends. It was in a different part of Laurel, and we were. That community was very deep into video games. Like, that was kind of one of the cornerstones. We used to run around, do stuff outside and stuff a lot too. But when we think about the stuff that we did when we were kids, it was a lot of goldeneye. It was a lot of Wayne Grits and Ghaki and Killer Instinct and like, there's mostly goldeneye, though. We spent. We did a lot. A lot of goldeneye. And I think that, yeah, we. All of us. All of us were really pretty hardcore gamers in that way. And. And it was great because that was when. I mean, I think it's one of the great tragedies of video games generally. We're coming back from it a little bit, but at the time, you know, you were playing games, but you're all together, you know, you're all. We were all sitting on the floor in my friend's basement playing, you know, night together. And when Couch Co Op sort of fell away and people were sort of playing from their house, I don't know, I feel like some of that magic kind of kind of fell off. And, you know, I know that there's. There's a lot of games that have been really stepping up in that regard and, like, trying to pull Couch Co Op back into. Back into, you know, the four, which I'm a huge fan of. Any time that I get to see somebody do something like that, so. But at the time, yeah, played. Played a ton of goldeneye. And those guys, I mean, some of them are still. I've got three of my buddies, we still play games Friday nights. Like, they're really into Helldivers. And we played a lot of company Heroes before that. And so we still. We still connect on Video games. But obviously it's different because we're in different places and we're all, you know, older guys and stuff, so. But it's cool. I mean, that video game connective tissue is still there. It's still keeps. Keeps that group together, which is, which is nice. That's one of those things. It's like, I really do think that video games, they can be, you know, in my, in my darkest, you know, nights, sometimes I'm like, oh, you know, is what we do important? Like, you know, but like, I have to remind myself that, like, video games are for a lot of people, especially in our generation, that's the connective tissue that, you know, maintains relationships that otherwise would, you know, just wither and die. You know, because people are moving around, especially devs, you know, we're in different parts of the country all the time and stuff, so. So yeah, I think, I think that in terms of a tool that keeps people together, that maintains friendships, keeps them healthy, I think, you know, video games are a public service in that regard. [00:08:23] Speaker A: That's a great way of putting it. And I agree. Yeah, they can be such a great touchstone, right? A connection point for folks. And it sounds like the sort of N64 era was a big part of that. That for you. How did that, you know, playing those games and then going into, you know, school and etc. Like, when did you. Was there a point where you felt like you could maybe make video games rather than just play them? You know, was there, was there a transition point there? [00:08:52] Speaker B: Not for a long time, to be honest. Like, I went to my, my undergrad. I went and I studied history and philosophy, and I did that without really thinking about, like, what comes next. You know, I mean, I was just sort of following my muse and I loved reading and I loved learning about history and, you know, so it just sort of made sense. And I kind of like dabbled with the idea, okay, maybe I'll be a professor or whatever, but I didn't really think about, like, what am I going to do? What am I going to produce? So I got that degree and then I kind of was like, you know, messing my GREs and looking at graduate schools. And then I was like, know, man, you know, like, I don't know. So, so then I started thinking about, okay, what, what do I, like, what do I want to produce? Right? And like I said, I had always been an artist. I've been drawing and painting my whole life. And it was one of these things where, you know, everyone thought, oh, it's a Natural fit, you know, because everyone was always like, oh, Lehman, you should go do art. And I was like, I don't know, it's like my, that's, that's my real, you know, release. That's how I get out of my own head and like, relax. Like, I don't know if I want to do that as a profession. And then people were like, no, man, you're so good. You just do it. So I was like, okay. So like, I ended up going to a scam school, like a for profit art school out in Phoenix, Arizona. And I was out there and I was studying animation with the intent of like doing like stuff for film. And all my buddies at the school were all game developers, game development students, like 3D modeling and environmental stuff and everything. And I'm watching them do their cool stuff and I'm looking at my stuff and it's like, I don't know, no offense to anybody who does 3D animation, I think it's an amazing skill. It was sort of fun when I was doing it, but a lot of it, it's like, I mean, for someone like me, I'm a reader. It's like I felt like I was diffusing a bo. Like, there's all these like dots and you got to move things around. There's all these sliders and numbers. And I was like, oh my God, how is this, how is this art? And for some people it absolutely is. It's amazing. But for me it was not. So I was working on modeling stuff and then people were like, all right, man, well, you know, you're hanging out with all the game development people. You should do, you should get a game development thing. And I was like, ah, maybe, okay. But by that point I was sort of already out of the, out the door. So I got my degree and then I'm like sitting around and went back home and I'm looking for gigs in film, nothing. And then I'm like, okay, well, I'll look for stuff in video games because I know a lot about video games. I enjoy video games and opening. Showed up at zenimax that they were looking for quality assurance people. And I was like, okay, I mean, I like video games. You know, maybe I can go there and I can show them my art and I'll parlay that into this concept gig or something like that. So I went in fully intending to do art. That was my thing. So I got into the studio, I was making all these connections, I was talking to, there's a great concept artist, the guy Named Matt Weathers. I'm not sure where he is now, but he was super cool. He's one of the lead concept art guys, and we were working hard and working on portfolio and stuff. And as it went along, people saw I was doing a lot of writing, too, like, doing reviews of people's work. And Rich Lambert, he was like, hey, man, like, we see that you're doing a really great job with writing this stuff. The reviews for the Quest. How would you feel about doing content? And I was like, well, Rich, look, man, I'm an artist, okay? I don't have time for all this other stuff. And I was like, I'll take that job. But you need to understand, when this concept art boat rolls in, I'm getting on it and sailing away, like, that's. That's it. And he's like, yeah, okay. No. So that's how I kind of slipped on a banana peel and wound up doing writing and concept stuff or. And content development. And. Yeah, it was weird because it was definitely not where I was headed. But, I mean, it's, you know, circuitous path. That's where we wind up. So. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. There's so much to unpick there. So art was your passion. Art of, you know, I guess traditional. More traditional art rather than 3D art was a passion. [00:13:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:20] Speaker A: And that's the thing that kind of got you thinking, like, that's what. If I was gonna make video games, that's what I would do. [00:13:25] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, down. Down to my. Down to my bones, I was like, this is. This is what I'm gonna do. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Right. Wow. And then when you went to an actual school where there was real game development, you know, training happening, you found that actually that aspect of the way that manifested in video games of that era was not the version of art that you were kind of looking for, right? [00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was much more. Just much more technical than, you know, I was. Like, I said I was a traditional media. I did a lot in, you know, pencils and paints and pastels, and, like, it felt very different and very technical. And the. The results, the things that you could make with it were amazing. And. But the. The process just was never very intuitive for me at all. So the classes that I really enjoyed out there were, you know, like, obviously it's like life drawing and color theory and like, the kind of stuff that's, like, not necessarily working in the machine, like, you know, doing all the sliders and dots and stuff. But again, I mean, it's like the folks who are Good at that stuff. It's amazing to watch. And I was always intensely envious of them when, you know, I was, like, trying to make my little animation, like, here, does that look okay? And then people are, like, doing these, like, amazing things. It's like. I guess it's not that good. [00:14:50] Speaker A: But. [00:14:51] Speaker B: Yes, that was it. [00:14:53] Speaker A: But I guess what's incredible about that, and I think there's a nuance there that could be easily missed, is, you know, art in video games is a very broad umbrella. And I think your story sort of indicates how there's, you know, some very different aspects of what art in video games. You know, there are. To your point, there are concept artists that, you know, sounds like that was sort of the area like, oh, that's concept art is much closer to what I want to do. But, you know, there are many artists that are much more technical, do an entirely different version of art that. For video games, especially in the 3D era, that, you know, is a whole skill set that you don't necessarily automatically have if you're an artist. Right. You know, it's. They're very different prongs of, you know, of a similar idea. [00:15:40] Speaker B: Totally. And. And I think that that's something that's. That's one of those things that I always, when I'm talking to people who are trying to break into the industry, that's. That's. That's the thing that I did not understand and, you know, now I do, obviously. And. And like, people, they don't know how broad that kind of horizon is for that discipline. Like, it's not just, you know, it's like, hey, I can paint a character. It's like, okay, you can paint a character, but art within the context of a video game, like you said, is this really broad palette of environments, VFX character. There's a billion different things that you can do as an artist in games. And, yeah, I think it's one of the great tragedies that people don't sort of put you on that path early because, yeah, the stuff that's happening in VFX is amazing. And I remember when I was in art school, nobody was talking about vfx, you know, like. But that's absolutely, like, this incredibly important part of the art pipeline of video games. So, yeah, that's definitely if we were going to get a message out to potential artists in the industry. It's like, don't just look at characters. There's a lot going on that you can do. That's not that. [00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, yeah. And I think. And I guess you discovered that not the hard way, right. But you kind of bumped up against that wall and you were like, oh, this wasn't what I was looking for. Like, what do I do? That's. That's kind of interesting. And then you're. And then, like, you say it didn't directly lead to a role in the industry, but I guess going through that process of that, you know, that art school and being so close to people that were sort of training to be game, you know, game developers, did you absorb a lot of kind of understanding of the process from that or how did that sort of correlate into the actual being in the industry? Were there parallels there? [00:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that one of the things that really struck me, and it did actually end up being more true, is the idea of what are the conditions, like the restrictions of the medium? Not necessarily. I don't know if restrictions is the right word, but the boundaries within which video game art and development and content take place. And so that came up a lot about, you know, people talking about, oh, you know, there's poly limit or there's, you know, there's too many verts here or whatever. And. And that, that kind of got the. The, you know, thing moving in my brain where it's like, oh, okay. So it's not just if you sit down with a pencil and a piece of paper, sort of. Obviously there are limits to what you can do pencil on a piece of paper, but it really is a limitless horizon in terms of you can do whatever you want. But in video games, there are technical restrictions, there are gameplay restrictions. There's a million different things that you have to account for when you're developing stuff. And I think for some people, that can feel limiting. But I'm a strong believer in sort of like art through restriction or art through adversity, being able to refine an idea down to fit within a medium. And honestly, I think that's just something that I always have to sort of remind myself of, or always. And I'm always. I don't know. There's something cool about it, about the idea that you have this box to work within and can you buck up against it? Sure. But also, it gives a thing its shape, the art of game development. It works within these principles and these boundaries, and how can you work within those in a way that's really, really cool and delivers a really excellent experience? That's not a movie, it's not a book, it's a game. It's authentically a Game. And I think that that's, that did come through. I did get that from, from my buddies at the, at the school. And then, you know, obviously being in the industry that, that really, you know, sharpened that and I got a better understanding of, okay, what exactly does that mean? [00:20:02] Speaker A: And yeah, yeah, that's a great point. And I think it's one that we in the industry get used to it changing, right. Every five to seven years, right, Those constraints change in one form or another. You know, memories go up and bump mapping appears or these new things appear and change those constraints. But the fact that there's constraints is still true, it's just they become different and we have to kind of adapt and react to that. Which I think that's a great point. It's again, a crucial part of what makes game development. Game development. I think it's a really good call out. Okay, so you went to an art school, picked up some stuff from some game dev buddies, found this sort of slight clash against what you were hoping to do, and then you. A role opens up at ZeniMax for QA. So that was that kind of like, oh, this. I think you said this was kind of your chance to kind of get into the, get into the industry and like you say, use it as a way of kind of parlaying your way into the thing you really wanted to do. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I know that's kind of a cliche at this point. It's like, oh, yeah, get into QA and then you work your way in or whatever. I really, I think it was absolutely just an essential part of my sort of career journey. Now we were lucky. Luckily our QA department was embedded. Right. Like, we weren't shuttled off to a different building. You know, like we were face to face with devs all the time. And I just learned so much about how games were made and the kind of, you know, like the rough sort of how the sausage is made kind of stuff about all the things that can go wrong and all the, all the things that need to go right in order for it to work and just how pipelines and leadership structures and all that stuff. I was able to learn that in an environment that was really friendly and healthy. I loved all my co workers. You know, we were all kind of, you know, goofballs, but we're all, we're all kind of learning how everything works. And then I feel like when a job did come along, when that content gig was available, I was much. I mean, obviously the personal connections were a huge part of It. But I was also just in terms of industry knowledge of how games are made, I was just so much better equipped to answer those questions and kind of hit the ground running. And so I think qa, obviously it's an essential discipline. Just generally, I think all of us know they get shafted sometimes, but it's such an important part of the development process. And I strongly recommend anybody who, even if you don't have to necessarily be someone who wants to be creating assets or doing gameplay stuff. Just if you're interested in how video games work, being in QA is a great place to be. You'll learn a ton. [00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. Yeah, same for me. That's where I started. And you get so much of an understanding of the process and how games work, and it gives you a really good opportunity to learn through osmosis, I think. So QA gives you that good insight. You get your foot in the door at a company. But you mentioned that writing, you were doing the reviews of the quest, and it sounds like writing was also a passion of yours as well as the art. Is that. That's always been the case? [00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, but it was, it was funny. It was like one of these like hidden passions that I just never really was serious about or something like, and it was, it was one of these like weird sort of like usual suspects moments when I finally got into writing, like professionally, because I like started looking back and I was like, oh man, I did do a lot of writing and I did really enjoy it and it was really good. And like, so it was, it was hilarious. I remember I was, I was kind of a delinquent for a while. And when it was one of these, I don't know, like goodwill hunting sort of things, like, I was in this English class with this guy, Mr. McDermott, I'll never forget him, he's a really, really cool guy. And he gave us this really open ended creative writing assignment and it was like nothing I'd ever seen before. And it wasn't like, hey, here's a book report, here's whatever. He's like, just, just go nuts, man. You know, write 15 page goofy story. And I ended up writing this really terrible, like spy thriller, like story or whatever. And I had a blast. It was really, I really enjoyed it. And I gave it to him and he's like, oh my God, this is like really good. We need to get you into more advanced classes. And I was like, do I have to do more work in those classes? Because if so, I'm not interested. And then like, it was hilarious. There's this whole horse training thing where I was talking to the teachers and I was like, how much work is it? And they eventually convinced me that it wasn't too much work. And it was great because I moved into. They were more advanced writing classes and stuff. And then I was able to. So I really, really enjoyed that stuff. And I enjoyed writing my philosophy papers when I was in college. Did a ton of reading and writing. And so when I finally got into writing, I was like, oh, my God, like this. You know, it was with me all along. You know, it was there, and I just wasn't paying attention. So. So, yeah, it was cool. [00:25:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. And so, yeah, that role kind of unlocked that. That passion. So is that. Do you think there's any correlation between, you know, that passion for writing and the video games you played? Or was that kind of a personal, you know, a personal discovery in terms of your, you know, as you. As you're working your way through your education and writing a lot? [00:26:04] Speaker B: No, I mean, I was. I think that video games were absolutely keyed into that kind of, like, secret passion about writing from the beginning. Like, you know, I was a huge, huge bioware narrative game fan. Baldur's Gate. You know, I mean, there's any game that I found that had a compelling narrative. I remember, I think I was playing Metal Gear Solid, and there was all the, you know, the Kojima, like, long, you know, kind of monologues and stuff. And I'd never seen something like that in a game. And I was like, wow. Like, that's nuts. Like, look how much story they're piling into this, you know, walk around and choke people and hide in a box game, you know, and that was. I think that kind of opened my eyes to what interactive narrative is capable of. And I loved, loved, loved Kotor Jade Empire. There was just. Just a ton of. Just a ton of opportunities there. And so. So, yeah, I think that that went hand in hand. I was always. I think I've always been like, I love movies, I love books, but I feel like video games have always been the kind of, like, the top of my, you know, media consumption and the idea that real story could take place in that medium, especially for, you know, when we started with Mario Brothers and Zelda, where, I mean, yes, there's a narrative, but it is bare bones and it's not overt watching that kind of progression of, like, you know, video games evolve into a storytelling, A complex storytelling medium. Yeah, I think that definitely had an effect on me long term. [00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Sounds like it. It might be a bit of a reach, but it's funny that the game that you said you were inspired by, Zelda, is an rpg, right. Which to your point was light on the narrative, but more, probably more dense than most games of that time. And you mentioned the box art as being kind of, you know, that the inspiration. Like it's funny that though that might be a bit of a reach, but it feels like. No, I think, I think parallel there between. [00:28:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I think, I think so. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah. That's cool. Okay. Yeah. So. So big RPG fan, you know, that inspires you to write big art, you know, traditional artists, you're inspired to, you know, to continue that, that skill. So. So when you got into the actual kind of proper writing. Yeah, I'd love to sort of dig into the Lore master role a little bit. I love that title. It's such a incredibly inspiring like title to have like. So you started writing for ESO and I guess the Scrolls Online. How did that go? How did you find that? Sounds like it unlocked your writing passion, but what was that process like? [00:28:53] Speaker B: Yeah, so when I transferred from QA into content, it was. The first gig was very much it was content development. Like there was writing involved, but it was very tools based sort of technical role. And that's again, I mean, this is kind of a continuing theme. Like Lehman wants to do something creative and then he goes to a place and he's excited about it and then there's a bunch of numbers, you know, like that. That was very much my experience. Like I actually have a. I didn't discover this until very later, but I have a disorder where I see numbers mixed up and I just didn't know that for a very long time. And I was really, really bad at math and I never really understood why. And when I was, when I was in college, I was doing something and I was hanging out with my now wife, my then girlfriend, and I was doing some addition and I was tapping the paper and patterns and she was like, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh, this is how I do my math. I tap in patterns. And she's like, what? No one does that. And then I came to find out that that was a coping mechanism for people with dyscalculia or whatever, the inability to see numbers correctly. So it was funny. So I carried that with me into this job. There's lots of numbers and the only way I was able to kind of overcome it is that patterns on the number keys. So I'm able to Sort of. And I still screw up all the time, but so I'm butting up against that all the time. Because the number thing and then also just the way that the tools scripting works, visual scripting was easier for me than actual. The really hardcore stuff, but there was a lot of that in there. So. Loved the storytelling part of it, loved the character part of it. Did not love the development, like the, you know, all the, the scripting side of things at all. So. But, but I mean, you know, on the, on the, you know, on the whole, it was. I, I still enjoyed it. It's just I was really struggling with that part. And then we had a writing team, which it was run by Wynn McLaughlin at the time. And I was, I was, I was looking at those guys and I was like, what are you. What are you doing? And they're like, well, we just got to write stuff. And I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. I would love to just write stuff. How do I do that? And so I talked to Wynn and other writers a lot, Zach Bush, Michael Zinke, a bunch of other guys, and I was just trying to kind of absorb everything there. Bill Slavisack, obviously he's the lead writer now, narrative director, I think, but so tried to just absorb as much as I could about how that works, what the points of connectivity between the writers and the content developers was. And eventually I just kind of elbowed my way into that team. And so then I was a writer and I was great and then kind of just kept chugging along. Got to be a senior writer and I got to be sort of the principal on two big releases, the Mirkmire release and Clockwork City. And as I was going along, I had always been a big Elder Scrolls fan, so as I was going along, I also realized that it's like, okay, so you can write these stories, but the stories contribute to story big ass of Elder Scrolls and kind of helping shape that universe, which I always thought was really, really cool. And then that's kind of what set me on the path to doing the Lore Master again. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. So interesting. So, yeah, so the content side of it was not, again, you thought was what it was going to be, was going to be one thing, it was something different. And then you found your way to the writing side. How did that passion for Elder Scrolls that you already had, how did that manifest in the writing? Did you just sort of connect with the lore right away and sort of feel like you were comfortable? Did it take some adaptation? [00:32:59] Speaker B: Like, how did that go No, I was pretty familiar with the lore prior to the job. I loved Morrowind. I loved Oblivion. Later on, loved Skyrim. I thought that that universe provided a lot of opportunities to do fun things that you wouldn't see in a. In another fantasy franchise. And when we were doing the quest, I mean, it's. It's. I think that this sort of picked the lock on some stuff for me generally, like, for. For how I do my job. Now, there's the idea that, yes, you're telling a story with characters, but there's all these. There's all these kind of hidden hooks in that, where you can find kind of meta narratives within those smaller narratives. And you can, you know, yes, you have an Argonian in a quest, and the Argonian is just like a normal person. They have their own, you know, kind of, like, interests and stuff. And obviously, developing a character is, you know, kind of character by themselves is important, but when you bring all the nuance of what makes an Argonian, Argonian, what makes an Argonian within that cultural context that they're in right there, different, then I think it opens up all these layers of complexity that if you don't know the lore, if you're not familiar with it, they just. You just miss out. You know, you miss out on those opportunities to make things more complex and, you know, more complexity is not always good. You know, I mean, it's. It's good to. Simple stories are good, too. So a lot of it, you kind of tuck away. You hide it for the people who are really interested in that sort of thing. But. But yeah, I mean, I think a familiarity with. Or not even a familiarity, but with just an interest in what that universe does well, I think is important in order to deliver an authentic experience that you could only find in that place. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. And so is that where the kind of Lore master, the sort of becoming that vessel of understanding the law developed on aerial scrolls online and you ultimately took to the next project? [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so, to an extent. I mean, one of the things I always tell people, and I don't know if this is true, been your experience, but like a lot of my life, certainly my professional life, is it's just you. You slip on a banana peel and then you're just doing something. Right? Like, it's not like you didn't. You didn't plan it. You didn't. I mean, I'm not a planner anyway. And it's so funny because I talk to people and then, like, how did you, you know, how did you plan to move forward? Or what was your goals when you did this? And I was like, dude, man, I. I don't know. You know, my goals were to go to work and to have a good time doing what I was doing. And so the Loremaster gig, I was a senior writer. I was doing, like I said, I did Mirk Meyer, I did clockwork, I did some dungeon work. And then Lawrence Schick, who was the Loremaster, got a gig at Larian, and he rolled out. And they were like, okay, well, we need a Loremaster Leemon. You know a lot about this. You want to do it? And I was like, okay, that sounds cool. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker B: I mean, that sounds like a good gig. [00:36:20] Speaker A: So. [00:36:21] Speaker B: So that's how it happened. There was no. There was. There was no angling. I didn't. You know, I did. I did watch Lawrence. I did sort of, you know, sort of subconsciously take notes on what he was doing. And I did. I had a connection with him where, you know, like I said, I mean, again, it doesn't have to be encyclopedic knowledge, but just an interest, right? So if I'm writing a story about a dark elf doing X, I would be like, lawrence, what do you think? And he would give me an answer. And I always found those answers helpful. And so I was like, okay, well, if I'm in a place where I can provide helpful answers or even just a sounding board for people who are trying to, you know, make the world more authentic, like, that sounds cool. So, yeah, so that's how I. That's how I took the gig. Wasn't planned. I would have very happily, I guess, kept just doing principal writer stuff, but it worked out and help me understand. [00:37:20] Speaker A: The difference between the principal writer role and the Loremaster. Like, where do they overlap and where are they different? [00:37:27] Speaker B: So it really depends on the project. Loremaster on Elder Scrolls Online was very different than Loremaster on the new project that we were doing. So with eso, yes, it was taking care of franchise stuff and people coming to you and talking to you about stuff. But I was also. At the same time, I was still doing senior principal writer stuff. I wasn't in charge of major releases, but I was still doing quests and stuff. So that part of my job never changed. I was still doing quests and doing steely items and writing books and doing all that stuff. So it was. It was really kind of like two jobs, which it was. It was. It was kind of a lot, but it was also, because it was a live product, there was all the, all the other stuff that takes place outside of the game, although like the, the game that you play. Right. Like, so all the monetization stuff, all of the marketing stuff, all of the, you know, the kind of like side ancillary supporting material doing, you know, we were talking to a board game people about stuff was helping out with the card game they were developing. So there's all these, these kind of supplemental systems that require help and review and suggestions and stuff like that. So there was just, it was, there was a lot to it. And when you're on that like live service train, like it just never stops. It's just like. So, so it was, it was, it was a lot and it was a lot of referring to existing material because I mean Elder Scrolls is a decades old franchise. So there's a lot of research and a lot of going back and you know, looking at stuff that we've done before. But then when I made the transition to the other project, like it was a completely, completely different experience. Like there were no quests to write really at that stage. So that entire section of my job was just not there anymore. And there was no decades of material. Right. Like is making it up full cloth. So very, very, very, very different experiences. But both of them were interested. The primary interest was in protecting the IP and advocating for its best qualities. So in that regard they were the same. But in terms of day to day it's very, very different. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Got it. And it's interesting that earlier on you mentioned being a big fan of constraints. Constraints help create the canvas that you can work in. And I can't help but feel like the role that you had was part, was part of setting those constraints in a healthy way. Right. It was a part of kind of understanding where the, where the boundaries are adding, you know, extending them where you can, but also holding them, holding them true at times as well and kind of create, helping to create that canvas to help people be inspired. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Yeah, at its best I think that's, that's true. I think that, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a tough gig because you know, it's like I said, we're not making movies or books, we're making games. Right. And games, in order to be successful, games have to do things that don't always line up one to one with the sort of universe that you're developing in your brain. And I mean you and I, we worked through situations like this multiple times, me and John as well, where you're trying to at its best, the Loremaster is providing, yes, constraints, but also opportunities. Like, say, here's a technology that I think is really cool. Are there ways that you can utilize that to make your job better and to make the thing that you produce both better and more in line with the sort of basic principles of the ip? And when that works, it's great. There's not a better feeling because you're like, complete simpatico. It's like, oh, yeah, it's making great gameplay, it's supporting the lore in a really interesting way. And then there are varying levels of success underneath that, where it's like, somebody has a great idea and you're like, oh, my gosh, I don't know that really. I'm struggling to figure out how to make that fit. And, you know, there is, you know, mostly healthy tension there, I think, but it can also. It can be frustrating for everybody. It can be frustrating for the developers who are making this stuff because they're like, we have a great idea. We know people are going to enjoy it and that they're going to like playing it. So, you know, let's not be a pain in the ass about this. And, like, I'm completely, you know, sympathetic to that. But then it's also, you know, it's my job to advocate for the ip. You know, it's like the Lorax, you know, the IP can't speak for itself. Right. You need someone there to. To. To speak for it. So, so it's, it's, it's tough. There's a lot of give and take and a lot of it runs on trust that everyone is working in good faith and that everybody is just trying to do the right thing and get to where you want to go. And I think that, you know, my experience has always been very positive. I think that, you know, people, you know, I mean, yeah, you're going to get frustrated now and then, but I think that people understood the value of IP principles and, and making a unique universe. And like I said, at its best, that unique universe can inform and enhance and, you know, provide opportunities that wouldn't be there otherwise. So, yes, I think that it creates constraints, but also, yes, I think it creates opportunities that are, you know, if you execute on them, makes it really. [00:43:50] Speaker A: Really cool, for sure. Yeah. And I think that's probably also a part of modern game development. Not all games, but now there are more games that try to build that really authentic world, you know, strong world, building strong, consistent lore that, you know, and the best versions of those, like, you're saying manifest that law in the mechanics, in the gameplay, in the experience. I think, I think the role that you held for me personally as a designer was like a really exciting marriage of like, I'm really excited about this silly random mechanic thing. Right. And, and, and you could give it purpose or like you said the other way around, you could come up with something that's like, hey, this, this could give something purpose. What can we do with it? That's a really interesting role and a really interesting, again, a very probably poorly understood role. Right. Not many people would necessarily understand that that's a role that you could even do. And I think it's a really interesting one. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. And I think it is, it's really cool because I think that that relationship that you just outlined is sort of game development in microcosm, right. Like it's, it's about taking, taking the best aspects of what makes the game really distinct in terms from a, from a narrative perspective or from a world building perspective and then marrying that with the things that make the game fun to play, which, you know, honestly are, you know, like I said, I, you know, I advocate for the ip but like, you know, real talk like, you know, gameplay is king when it comes to games because they're games, right? You play them. It's not a movie, it's not a book. So when you can, when you can get those things together, when you can get, you know, that sort of narrative, sort of more kind of, I don't know what the word for it is, but when you can take, when you can take that narrative and you can take the gameplay and you can fuse those things, things together in a compelling way, then you're going to make, it's going to be gold. It's going to be great. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And such a big change from, you know, Mario and Zelda, right. Which had the loosest of contexts but you know, not a whole lot of follow through in terms of, you know, world and gameplay. So like personally, you know, as, as you, Lehman, as the person. Right. How much does what you do reflect who you are? Are they very similar? You know, it's clear there's some passions, right, that have followed through in your career, but how much of your sort of game development Persona is, is, you know, is overlaps with you as Lehman the. Lehman the, the non game developer. [00:46:34] Speaker B: That's a great question. I think that, I think that it's pretty hand in glove to be honest, which I think is why I enjoyed my job as much as I did. Like you know, I really, it was, it was a great job. It's just a great job. And I think that it, it does. I mean, I've always been interested in ideas and in telling stories that are authentic and that make people think. And you know, if we do our job right, I mean, I don't want to like, you know, make, you know, it's beep boobs, you know, but like, you know, I really do, I really, I really believe that the medium is capable of doing good things, genuinely good things. And when we present nuanced narratives in complex worlds and kind of tell stories about that, I mean, I think that we have the possibility to make the world a better place. So yeah, I think that, you know, like I said, I was a huge philosophy nerd, I'm a huge history nerd. And so I think that this job was the perfect job for me because, because I think it does, it mirrors my, you know, my personal kind of interests so well. [00:47:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And then, and then how has your role impacted you as a gamer? Has it enhanced it? Has it challenged it? You know, how's that, how's that go? [00:48:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't. People ask me that a lot. I, I think, I think that my role has influenced my life as a gamer less than just my life as a person. It's like a father. And I can't sit down for a 20 hour gamer session where I can just run through the newest RPG or whatever. So I think that that has had a bigger influence. But I do, I am more mindful of how narrative works. Like, not necessarily does it work or doesn't it work, but how does it work or not work. And we're always learning and I think that it's hard not to, with this discipline, play a game and say, oh, I really, really loved how they did that or I would have done that a little differently and I think it would have been successful. But I don't think it's, it's never risen to the point where it has a negative effect on my gaming. I, I know that's, that's something that people get really worried about sometimes. They're like, oh, I don't want to go into games because then I won't enjoy games anymore. And that, that hasn't really been the case for me. Like, I think it's just, it's, you just have a, a slightly different perspective, a more academic perspective on it, that, that it's, it's easy to walk away from when you're playing it. You know, it's it's more like after you're done, you're like, oh, well, how do I think about that? But, yeah, I honestly, nowadays, most of the time, I find myself playing games that are very narrative light just because they're, you know, in and out in 15 minutes. [00:49:44] Speaker A: Right? [00:49:44] Speaker B: So like Helldivers and Fortnite, Marvel rivals. Like, that's. That's been kind of where I am recently. But every so often, I'll jump in it. Like, I'm super excited about Hades 2. Like, I, like, like, my son was playing Hades 1 downstairs, which is another perfect example of narrative and gameplay married together in this, like, really cohesive, beautiful whole. And I know that, you know, people are saying, oh, Hades 2 is even better. I'm like, how is that possible? So, like, that's a game that I know I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be spending a lot of time on. But again, you know, the Roguelite, it's. It's sort of built for people like me because it is. It's like, yes, it's a big game, but it's also. You're in and out in 15 minutes. Right? So. So, yeah. So still a gamer. Still play pretty much every night, but the. The time frame, the investment is just a little bit different. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Got it. Makes sense. And then, yeah, sort of related to that. And obviously, you know, as a parent, too, like, how does your family relate to what you do? [00:50:52] Speaker B: It's, It's. It's a very complex household when it comes to relationship with video games, because it's like, I'm obviously, games are, like, an incredibly important part of my life. Games are not an incredibly important part of my wife's life. And it's. It's just. It's funny. Like, she's. She's. She's so crazy. Like, I love her to death. But, like, when we were in college, I was really into. I got into Tenchu, Stealth Assassins, Wrath of Heaven. We're like, still, it's an amazing game if you haven't played it. But it's this stealth action game and it's pretty technical and, like, not a game that you would, like, hand to someone who has no interest in games and be like, hey, play this. But my wife picked it up and she got, like, really good at it. Like, really good. Like, she's getting, like, grandmaster on every level. And I was like, holy, have I unlocked something for her? Like, is this. Have I. Have I opened her eyes to something? And then she was like, okay, I'm done. And then I was like, what do you mean, okay, you're done. I got these other games you can play. She's like, nah, I really like that game. And that's it. I was like, what? And then she didn't play a game for, like, a really long time. She played a little Tony Hawk with us. She got really into the Sims for a while, but for the most part, video games are just not a huge part of her life. So it's funny, like, when we try to, like. Like, we just. Like, she understands it's important to me, and she understands it's important for my relationship with my friends, and she understands it's becoming important for my kids, but it's just not. It's sort of a purely, like, you know, cerebral understanding. It's not like a. Like a visceral understanding. My son is really, really into video games. My daughter is into video games. Not quite as much as he is, but it's cool to watch and to see which things they kind of get into. My daughter's really into, like, Astrobot and Animal Crossing, and my son is into, like, he's playing Hades, and he plays Marvel Rivals, and he plays. He got really into the insomniac Spider man games and stuff like that, so. So it's cool to watch that evolve and to find, like, to, like, when. When I. When I. When he finally graduated to two sticks, I was like, yeah, now we're there, and my. My daughter's getting there, and we're like, oh, yeah, that's awesome. So, yeah, it's. It's. It's funny. It's. So there's. There's me who's like, you know, like, video games are part of our education. Go there and play video games. And then there's my wife's, like, what are we doing? Like, it's a beautiful day outside. So. So it's funny, but I think. I think it's healthy. I think that, you know, I think that if. If it was just me, I think the kids would miss out on a lot of stuff. And if it was just her, I think that the kids would miss out on a lot of stuff. So it's a good partnership. We're able to make it work. [00:53:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. And it's. You mentioned earlier that your siblings may be sort of play here and there. And what about, you know, any other members of your family that kind of relate to what you do or inspired by what you do or confused by what you do? [00:54:04] Speaker B: Yeah, my nephew's really into video games. My niece is pretty into video games. My nephews and nieces on my wife's side are pretty into it. But I mean, you know, if I was like my parents and stuff like that, I think this is a pretty, pretty common thing. I mean they really, they just don't really have any idea what's going on. And I remember one of my favorite stories about my dad is my dad never played video games. Had no interest in them whatsoever when we were growing up. And same with my mom, but he was, I mean he just, just didn't even. Didn't get it at all. So I remember when I was in, I think it was in college, I came home and I was like, dad, I got this game, it's called Halo. I think you're really going to enjoy it. I don't know why I thought he was really going to enjoy it. Like, I just like convinced myself that it's manifestly true that this game is good and any normal intelligent person would enjoy it. Right. So I brought it home and I'm like, okay, here's the controller. He's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm like, okay, you just do this and you shoot. And so we're playing the game. He's got the. Cut it up into the four parts of the screen and I keep looking at his part of the screen and his gun. He's like looking and then it just keeps going up and he's like spinning around in circles and I'm like, all right, let me reset you or whatever. And then he's like doing it and then it would just go back up and go around circles again. So that was pretty. I feel like I just kind of came to terms with like this will never be a thing that he understands or really be interested in. But he's, you know, he likes that. I like it. Same with my, same with my mom, but. But yeah, there's not really a, a fulsome understanding of what that's about or certainly not how it's made. Not even like what it is, but like how it's made. [00:55:54] Speaker A: That's a great story. And of course you would try and get your dad into a split screen couch co op game. It sounds like that such a passion of yours that, that's the. It makes sense. That's where you kind of go and try and. Come on, dad, you gotta love this. That's a great story. Well, thanks, Lehman. I want to kind of wind this down. I love every one of these compensation I've done. Everyone's had their own journey, obviously. But there's always that moment where you sort of see the parallels between, you know, where you started as a gamer, where you started as a developer, and who you are as a person, and the fact that yours had these strange left turns of like, I'm just kind of, oh, wait, no. And then I'm doing, oh, wait, no. It's really cool. As a great, great story. And I really enjoyed working with you. Our time together was really. I remember it very fondly and, you know, we get to work together again. But, you know, I think your role is such a unique role in the industry that it's been great to get a good understanding of, you know, how it came to be for you and how it was to be that lawmaster. So, yeah, I appreciate your time. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, man. It was a real pleasure. And yeah, same. I think I had a really great time with you and your team working on the game and stuff, and I genuinely hope we get to do it again. [00:57:13] Speaker A: Agreed. Thank you. [00:57:16] Speaker B: Right on.