Dev to Dev S01 E07 - Orlando Jimenez

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Dev to Dev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. I'm here with another exciting conversation with a friend and colleague. I'm really looking forward to digging into the history. Orlando, would you like to introduce yourself? [00:00:17] Speaker B: Hey, yeah, I am Orlando. I am the former associate combat Designer over at ZeniMax. And yeah, here I am. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Well, thanks for doing this. I'm excited. We, yeah, we previously worked together, and it's gonna be interesting to dig into your history, like how we ended up working together and how that experience was. But I always like to kick this conversation off with. With a sort of a question, a way back question. When. When did you. When were you first inspired by video games? [00:00:52] Speaker B: I'd say my first inspiration was on the Nintendo 64 playing Spider Man. I love Spider Man. I have, like, I don't know, like, 400 comics of his. I had. I just started collecting the Magic the Gathering cards. I have, like, statues of him all over the place. I got the collector's editions of things. Right. And ever since that game, I was like, dude, video games are freaking cool. I want to learn how to do this because Spider Man's awesome and I want to make games like that. And I was just, you know, obsessed with playing Spider man, with playing on my Nintendo, and then from then on, you know, realizing my journey, you know, eventually coming to fruition of, you know, making games. [00:01:42] Speaker A: I love that. Okay, so. So Spider man on N64, not only. So you were an existing Spider man fan. [00:01:48] Speaker B: You. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Reading and enjoying Spider Man. So the video game really captured you. Was that the first video game you played or just the first video game that kind of. You remember being caught by. [00:02:00] Speaker B: I believe it was the first game I was ever caught by. The first game I played was, I want to say, Super Mario. [00:02:14] Speaker A: And. [00:02:15] Speaker B: And then I think after that was gta. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Wow, what a contrast. [00:02:22] Speaker B: It was like the original top down. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Oh, right. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, it was. It was. It was so funny because I was like, what's. What game is this? And my uncle was showing me. He was like, yeah, this is, you know, this is Grand Theft Auto. And, you know, it's a top down. See little pixels of him coming up and down, left and right. I'm like, what? And it was just hilarious. And then. And then, yeah, and then I started playing. Mom got me a Nintendo 64. I got a Spider Man Pokemon Stadium. And I think those are like, the only, like, two games that I had. Then my cousin Gave me like Mega Man 64. And then from there, like my first, I guess that was my first intro to gaming, really, those games. And then, then I played after that, my PlayStation 1. I was playing some SOCOM and then some SOCOM on PS2, you know, Jax, Jack and Jak and Daxter, Spyro, all those classic PlayStation games. And then from there on, I, you know, I didn't even know online existed at the time because I was like, what? You guys played online games on your PlayStation? I was like, what's this? I didn't know anyone existed until the PS3. I was like, what? You guys had online? You were playing SOCOM online? How does that, how does that work? It just blew my mind. And then my first game on the, on the PlayStation was on the PS3 was Killzone. And I think it was Dust 51 4. And that game got me encapsulated in, into like shooters and like first person shooters because I was like, whoa, this is really cool. And then Killzone on top of that, you know, like, those two kind of like brought together my obsession with like wanting to like, I guess brought me back more into wanting to make games because of how cool these experiences were. I was like, dude, this is awesome. I want to, you know, keep doing this, keep playing games and stuff like that. My mom was like, yeah, okay, sure, go ahead. You know, my mom was fully supported. I was like, all right, cool. And yeah, I went to like, you know, I went to school for it and it was just really awesome experience. [00:04:42] Speaker A: That's cool. Okay, so let me pick that apart a little bit. So, yeah, so Spider man on the N64 kind of bought your love of Spider man into a video game and really sort of inspired you? Did you sort of mention that that inspired you to want to make video games? Did you have that, that passion, like right away, like, I want to make these games because of the N64, Spider Man. Well, you kind of knew immediately. [00:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I kind of knew immediately. [00:05:06] Speaker A: Wow. [00:05:06] Speaker B: It was either that or be a firefighter. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:11] Speaker B: And I knew I couldn't do that because I have asthma, so. [00:05:15] Speaker A: Okay, yeah, got it. Okay. Okay. So. So the video game thing was like, that's. That's what I want to do. I love playing. And was there something, it sounded like there was something about seeing Spider man in, you know, being able to play Spider Man, I presume is kind of what really captured you because you read and watch Spider man for so long and now suddenly you could be Spider Man. [00:05:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So it was like, to me, it Was all about, you know, that player experience, you know, like being able to encapsulate yourself into a character that, you know, isn't real, but you can be, you know, for the moment that you're playing. [00:05:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:49] Speaker B: And it was, it's like these and it's. I guess it's also what I think about when I'm designing is like, you know, how if I'm, you know, if I'm this character, what can, what can I do to help sell that on this character? You know, what, what, what, you know, what part of this, of this character's kit or of this character's design can I kind of relate to me or relate to any of my experiences when I'm, you know, hands on controller. [00:06:17] Speaker A: That's amazing. So and so because you kind of had that experience playing Spider man, being Spider man, that kind of inspired you to be like, that's how you think about it. Right? You should think about the player experience, how the player is embodying themselves in the. [00:06:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:30] Speaker A: In, in the gameplay. Cool. Okay, so, so Spider Man N64, you know, kind of is, is a big landmark game. And then where, where, where were you growing up? Where? [00:06:42] Speaker B: This was in the Bronx. New York. [00:06:44] Speaker A: Okay, so in New York. Okay. And, and did you have families? Do you have siblings? Were they also gamers or anyone else in the family? [00:06:51] Speaker B: No, no, no, it was just me. Really? Yeah. Okay, so I was like the only person that like played games and stuff like that. And, and I was always like just on the big, you know, the giant tv that's like, you know, a giant. Yeah, yeah, that was me right in front. Friends. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Right. Okay, so, so, and what about friends or, you know, school friends? Were there, you know, a collection of people that were gamers around you or were you, you very much just like the gamer? [00:07:20] Speaker B: I was pretty much the gamer. All my other friends wanted to like play outside and, you know, have a life and stuff. [00:07:26] Speaker A: I don't know. What's that? [00:07:29] Speaker B: Bunch of losers socializing. [00:07:31] Speaker A: I'm just alone in my room playing video games. I win. [00:07:36] Speaker B: Well, because it was like, because it was like the only thing that I felt like I, I could like really sink myself into. And it was like, so because I could relate with whatever character I was playing or like, because I'd like brought myself like my subconscious into the character that I'm playing. I was like, we're friends. This is my friend right here. He's my best bud. [00:07:56] Speaker A: Well, and that to me makes sense why Spider man was the thing. Right? Because you were so Much of a Spider man fan and suddenly you could, like, you say, buddy up with Spider man and kind of be, you know, this, this mind meld of you in Spider Man. I can see why that would be so inspiring. Makes complete sense. It's very, it's very simple. A lot of the reason why I play third person games, right. Is because I enjoy that mind meld of. Right. There is a character and I'm bringing myself to that character and we're kind of like working together. That's, you know, it's a great escape. That's cool. So, yeah. So you grew up kind of playing games, you know, really just a primary game you said you went to school for. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I went to school for. I went to school for game design at full state university. I did it. Yeah, I did an online. So I was like, pretty much like, you know, at home and doing online school and working at the same time. [00:08:50] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:51] Speaker B: It was a lot. [00:08:52] Speaker A: That's hard. How did you balance that? That must have been really tough. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess it was. It was funny because, like, at first I. I guess my, my journey with like, game design, my game design degree is like a long one because it's like so, like, I graduated high school in 2011, spent a year in like a. In like a local college. Because the school that I really wanted to go to, which was DigiPen, they didn't have my capacity for me to join, so I was like. For game design. For game design. So I was like, you know, they were like, hey, just wait another year. And you, you know, you, you'll be able to come in and do it. Because I guess everyone at the time wanted to go in for game design because that was when it was first, you know, around the time it was first being brought into schools, I think. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll wait a year. So I just spent, you know, a year at, you know, some school by me. I was like, all right, it's fine, whatever. And then there was like, yeah, you're gonna have to wait another year because we still don't have any room for you. I was like, all right, I'll just go to this other school. And I was like, this other school ended up being full state university because it was, it was one of the other top schools to go to for game design at the time or game development too. Um, and then I was there for. So it was a three year program and I only ended up doing two because my mom at the time had, you know, she lost her job. So I was trying to work and do school at the same time, and I'm like, dude, this is hard. I can't do this. And, like, my grades started slipping and stuff. And so I was like. I talked to career development person. I was like, hey, you know, I need to, you know, give me. My grades are slipping from like a 3.5 to like a 1.4, 1.5 or something like that. And, you know, we're like. We had a talk and we're like, yeah. They were just, you know, I'll take a break and then I'll come back, you know, next year. And then, you know, I could start us up again or, you know, whenever. Whenever we were back up on our feet. And then when. When I did that, there was like. They denied me re entry because they said that my GPA wasn't. Was too low for me to bring. Come back up. And I was like, but you told me to come back. [00:11:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:09] Speaker B: The whole point was because I wanted to. I. I chose to step. My grades were slipping. And then I was gonna come back and, you know, start all over again. And then I just got mad and I never, you know, finished my degree. I was like, I'm not gonna, you know, f you guys. I'm not gonna do this. And then. And then I think, like 10 years, like, not 10 years later exaggerating, but like, what felt like 10 years later? Well, I was like, I. I had. I had just moved to New Jersey because. To make it to be closer to my last job. And there I was, a community manager at a co Working space. So instead of spending like an hour and 15 to an hour and a half getting there, it was like 30 minutes. And I was like, all right, I'll do that. And then. Because I was like, then since I moved out, I was like, I have so much free time. I have nothing better to do. Let me go. Let me. Let me attempt to go back to school again. Let me see what they say this time. Yeah. And so I went. And there was like, you know, I went through the. The process of re entry, and then there was like, we don't know why we denied you in the first place. You could. You. You could have just came back. That was like, are you serious? [00:12:28] Speaker A: Wow. [00:12:29] Speaker B: They was like, yeah. I don't know why. I don't know why they denied you your re entry, but, yeah, you definitely could have, you know, you definitely, you know, had you have enough time for you to just, you know, come back, get your grades up, and then, you know, good to go So I did, I brought my, my, I got basically A's and A plus. I basically almost aid. The entire, the entire like year and a half that I spent there. Brought my GPA up like a little over a point which was hard already because it's like, you know, your GPA is so low. So. Yeah, aced everything and I think I got like an honor on like a, an award for like game history and stuff. [00:13:10] Speaker A: Oh wow. [00:13:11] Speaker B: And yeah. And then I graduated my bachelor's degree and here I am. [00:13:19] Speaker A: That's such a cool story. So. So, so a lot of juggling then you were kind of, when you were at home with your mom, you were juggling. And then when you were. Yeah, when you, you were juggling the co Working space, work job, but also, you know, restudying. [00:13:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it was a lot of, it was a lot of work because all of our, A lot of our assignments were due like midnight. So because of that I had time to, I had, I had the time, you know, the hours between to like get, you know, I was out of work by like 5:30, 6 o'. [00:13:46] Speaker A: Clock. [00:13:46] Speaker B: I would get home by 6 o', clock, 6:30. And then I'll just have the remaining, you know, like four or five hours not including, you know, showering and eating to you know, to do work for school. Yeah. And then I, I, you know, I was, you know, headfirst on, on that and it, you know, but it paid off. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Got my degree. I think I know everything. Yeah. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, clearly. Yeah, no, you need to know good to go. So. But that's a lot of dedication though, right? To, to you. You must have had enough passion to fuel you, you know, because working a full time job and then also studying, you know, even, you know, into the night is not. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Faint hearted. Right. It's not easy. But you must have had a lot of passion in the design field, in the, on the course to want to, you know, commit to it and make it happen. [00:14:38] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of, A lot of perfectionism on my end. [00:14:42] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:14:43] Speaker B: Because it's like I want to do something, I'm just gonna do it. Right. And like I said before, like I've always wanted to do this and I, and I was like, I want to make games. So I was. And then it was funny because I've realized that I do that I. Whenever I think I can do something and I can do it better than someone else, I'll just go ahead and do it. Like the only reason why I work at a co working Space is because my ex girlfriend worked at a co working space and I was like, you're doing a terrible job. I can do this better than you. And I applied to a competing company doing it and I was like, I can do this job so much better than you. I just want to do it. And then I just went ahead and did it and I was always like the kind of type of person I would be like, I can do. If I feel like I can do something and I can do a good job at it, I'm just going to go head, you know, headstrong into, into it. [00:15:35] Speaker A: Right. So is it, is that a competition element or is that just a kind of desire to, you know, to perform and excellence? Like what? [00:15:45] Speaker B: I guess, I guess it was more of like a. I guess I compete with myself a lot because it's like, if I feel like. Because like, I feel like if I can do something and get it, if I can get an understanding as to why someone did something some way, and I can kind of refine it and make it a little bit better with the same theme, same, you know, same like, you know, same design, but like tweak it to make it a little bit more user friendly, then I would 100% do that. And I don't know why I was always like this, even when it came to like, drawing and stuff. Like, because I did some art in school and I would take other people's art and just be like, hey, I like your stuff, but I can do it better than you. And I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna draw this and draw the same thing that you did, but somehow other people are gonna like this one than yours. [00:16:34] Speaker A: You're not really sure where that comes from. Like, no, it's been. [00:16:36] Speaker B: I have no idea. Yeah, it's always been something that I was just like, I, if I can, you know, if I see a design and that I like, but I, but it feels better in our, in our like, game or, you know, whatever it is that we're making. I want to take that, you know, refine it, make it, you know, more user friendly, more developer friendly and then just kind of just go with it. Got it. [00:16:58] Speaker A: Okay. Does that, do you think that manifests. I mean, it sounds like it's manifest in your professional career, but also it manifests kind of everywhere, that desire to sort of take something and make it better. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it's always been something that I, that I, that I, you know, when it comes to like cooking or like making, you know, making food or, you know, Drawing or, you know, playing cards or whatever. Like, I just. I don't know why. Like, internally, I just like to try and do my best that I can with my, you know, try to put my best foot forward. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Because if I feel like I'm just doing the same thing as someone else, then that's not me doing something. That's just me copying whatever someone else is doing. And that's just. That's not. That's not really original to me. It's not, you know. Yeah. It's more of just regurgitating what someone else did, and that doesn't feel like a growth at all. Or, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. [00:17:51] Speaker A: No, no. I love that mentality. Orlando, I think that's like a superpower, man. Like, if that's your. I mean, obviously there's a version of that that's hyper toxic. Right. If you're always being, you know, if you're lording over people. Right. But. But I think. I think having that. That drive, I mean, clearly, right. It's been a. It was effective at Full Sail, because I'm guessing that's sort of what mot. Go and keep. Keep pushing. Right. Which is just. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah. More of this, like, competition with my old self where it's like, oh, I didn't finish. Well, I'm gonna finish this time, you know? [00:18:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's the piece that makes it not toxic. Right, Right. Because it is very much about being. Doing a better job. [00:18:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's for myself. It's not really for, like, you know, I'm gonna do better than you, and. [00:18:38] Speaker A: This is how bad you are. [00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah, it's never like that. [00:18:41] Speaker A: No, that would be the top Toxic goes. [00:18:42] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be toxic. [00:18:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it sounds like that. That's a. That's an incredible drive, you know, and so that served you really well going through the Full Sail process that, you know, the. The game design that you learned there, you were kind of approaching it from that. That way. Mm. Right, Right. And. And how did that course. How do you feel like that course informed you? You know, you said that you always had this desire to make games, and so you were on the course to learn how to make games. Do you feel like you got a really strong understanding of that concept, going through that? Like, how was that process for you? [00:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah, so, like, because we did, like, a bunch of, like, small projects, and, you know, we learned to. I guess, because we're doing so many small projects. We're learning to fail. And you know, learning to fail successfully is a really important part of game development. Because, because it's like, you know, if you can't take your failure and make it better, then you're not, you know, you're not really fit, right? And it's like, you know, fail fast and you know, learn to, and learn from that failure because, and if, you know, like at school I learned a lot of like, you know, I learned level design, I learned, you know, it was a lot of self paced too. Like not well self paced within the month. But it's like every month we had a new course and then within those new courses we had new projects that we had to complete for that month. Outside from our capstone, capstone was like three months at the end of the program. And there you would spend time with a team that you were put into and then kind of just learn how to learn how to communicate with them, learn who they are as a designer, what their strengths are, what they like, what they don't like. And then when it comes to any conflicts that you have within one another, within each other, to kind of resolve that and you know, don't be, don't be like a overconfident developer. That's like, it's my design, you know, it's my, you know, I did this, I did that. Like it's more about the team and how everyone does it and how you all group together and you know, kind of design as a unit instead of designing separately. Because if you're designing like that, then you're not really making a game for everyone. You're making a game for yourself. And that's not a very consumer friendly way to design. And I learned through that whole process I had a conflict with one of our developers or one of our other designers and I think I realized that I was the one in the wrong. And then from that I took that and I was like, whoa, no way I did that, right? I was like, I can't believe that I did this and, or like I caused an issue and you know, I apologize, I say I'm sorry, you know, and you know, from then on I was, I just never thought about like designs in that same way to cause conflict because I think that at the time I was designing for myself and I didn't realize that I was designing for myself. And then it was in that moment that I was like, I have to, you know, learn whenever I'm feeling this way to kind of try to understand why I'm feeling this way. Why do I feel like my, you know, this design is a better fit than the one that we want to go through? And I've done that in at, you know, work where I was like, hey, you know, I talked to our lead, John. I was like, hey, John, I feel like this design is a little bit better, but, you know, can you tell me, you know, why we were going this way as opposed to the other way? And because of that, I like to learn how people with more experience design things because then it helps inform me as someone that's coming into the industry and growing and learning how to think about designs outside of my own purview. Because, you know, like I said before, I'm not making games for me or I'm not, you know, making the game for everyone, for the player, for the company, for, you know, all every so many other designers that are making this, you know, trying to be cohesive in one unit, you know. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:02] Speaker A: Wow. That. So in that sort of. I know it was broken up in that kind of four, four year course. Was it four years? [00:23:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. In total. In total it was three years. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Okay. [00:23:13] Speaker B: But it was like a year and a half and then like years break and then another year and a half. But like, I guess because I also am older than I was then and like now I have, you know, more like real world experience with just like, you know, general problems and, you know, I have an older mentality, I guess I'm more mature, I'm wiser. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, the things we go through, you know, hopefully you, you know, it sounds like, especially with this mentality of like, trying to always do better than yourself, you know, you learn a lot. So I guess it's fascinating because from my perspective it sounds like in three years you learned what took me 10, it took me a long time to get over myself, basically. Right. And that's kind of what it sounds like it taught you to do, right? Just get over yourself, right? Yeah. [00:24:02] Speaker B: Get over myself, yeah. [00:24:03] Speaker A: It's not about your idea being the best idea. It's not about you being the most influential. It's about the team, it's about the consumer, it's about the experience. And like, that is an incredibly valuable lesson, I think, to learn. If that's all you learned coming out of a course like that, I think that's incredible because I think that is a really great way of building games. And I think a lot of us that have been around for a long time, it took us a lot longer to learn that. But I think a lot more people have that mentality now, which I think is really. That's great. Okay. Yeah. [00:24:33] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like a. Yeah, it was like a switch for me. Like, it didn't. You know, when you. When you really, you know, it's like when you realize you're doing that, you're like, oh, I'm doing that. [00:24:44] Speaker A: I'm the one. Yeah. Oh, no. [00:24:47] Speaker B: Yeah, let me. I was like, let me nip that in the bud right now. [00:24:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Because. But the fact that you did that, though, Orlando. Because I know, you know, there were times when I know I did that, and I didn't have that realization. I didn't have that recognition or like, no, no, my idea is better. Like, and I'm not going to back down, you know, like, and the fact that you were able to do that, and like, you say it probably was a couple of years of maturity, but even so, you're still young, right, to be able to do that. I wish I was that young when I had that realization. You know, I think. I think that's. That's really, really powerful. And that's a testament to your, you know, your approach that you. You. You resolved it that way by looking internally and go, no, that's on me. I've got to. I've got to fix that. [00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've done that. I've done, like, a lot of that in, like, you know, outside of work and then, like, you know, at work. And it's like, if you. If you can't really learn to grow, you know, if you can't grow yourself as a person while you're designing things and then realize that, you know, not every idea that you come up with is the. The greatest thing that you, you know, any design, oh, my God, this is million dollar design. I. We got to put that in there right now. Like, even if it is that great, right, you have to understand that it's. It may not be right fit for the. For what you're designing. It may not be. And even if it is, like, they're gonna say, no, you have to. And you have to be. Understand that if, you know, if I go up to my lead and, you know, he's like, this makes a lot of sense, but we're not gonna do it, then you have to be like, okay, all right. Yeah, and then just shelve it for later. Or, you know, you can shelve it for later and be like, okay, hey, you know, this is. The design that we're currently doing isn't working. Let's let's take a step back. Oh, I like this design that, you know, Orlando, you came up with. Well, you know, and if you can, you know, understand that it's okay to. To, you know, to hear the no. And, you know, kind of grow from that, then, you know, I think that you can. I mean, I don't really think of it as people pleasing, but, you know, at the same, it kind of is because you're not like, you're, you're, you're. You're. I mean, I don't know. It is, but it isn't. Because it's more like, you know, you're, you're getting like, to understand. He's like, okay, yeah, all right. I won't. I won't. You know, I won't push into it anymore. Yeah, you already did. Because then at that point, it's just like you're. You're kind of just begging and. Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker B: It's not. [00:27:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Or just being, you know, the, the. The sticky wheel. Right. Or whatever. Yeah, I. I don't think that's people pleasing, Orlando. I think that. I think for me, that is, in a weird way, that is iteration. Right? Iteration is try this thing, see if it fits. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. And then, you know, keep trying and keep trying. Right? That. And in order to do that, you as a person, to your point, have to be okay with going, I could have sworn that was the right thing right now. But maybe it isn't. Maybe it will be in the future. And even if. And even if it is, it may well turn out to not be. It might be the right thing right now, but, you know, you said, but it won't be later time, or we may be like, ah, that was a terrible idea. We thought it was great last year, and now it's terrible. I think, honestly, I'm super impressed that you have that mentality, because I think that is super. It is a superpower. Frankly, if more people in the world had that mentality, we'd be in a better place. But I think that is a superpowering game, Dev, to be able to go, I believe in this idea, but if it doesn't work right now, I'm okay with that. Right. And I think that I'm gonna fight for it, but I'm also okay if it doesn't. Doesn't work. That's. That's incredible. And I'm super impressed that you, you, you know, it sounds like full sail was part of that, you know, but, you know, like you say, also life Can. Can breed that in you too. [00:28:32] Speaker B: So, yeah, I've seen that happen, like real time at work. And it's like, you know, you, you'll have designs that you're just like, this doesn't make any sense while we're doing it. And, and then you, you'd be like, we pitched something like months ago. We're changing the design again and again and again. And then we're going back to circle. [00:28:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:50] Speaker B: To square one. And it's. And it's. You know, sometimes it's on purpose because you want to realize. You want to, you want to, you know, you don't want to just focus on the one design, you know, and be like, okay, this is the end all. Be all. We're never going to try anything else. You know, you change the design, you try something else, you see why it doesn't work. You, you know, you get other people to understand why you picked something without really telling them, this is why we're doing this. So. Because even though you know that it's the right, like the first design is the right design, other people may want to see why everything else doesn't work. And then that's also why, you know, sometimes some, like, some designs take forever to, you know, kind of like focus on. Because you're kind of like letting other people see why, you know, the other, the other visions don't work or don't fit what we're doing. [00:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:41] Speaker B: And then sometimes we just circle back to it anyway. [00:29:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think, I think that, that sort of battle, testing that idea. Right. Like, I think if you have an idea and then you try three or different. Different alternatives and you come back to the original one. Well, that original one is stronger now than it was when you first went through that process. And you can. And it's easy to look at that and go, well, why do we waste that time going through it? It's because you've come out of it going, this is, this was the right idea. This was the right idea from day one. We've proven that. Now we can all feel confident moving forward. Yeah. Again, that's an incredibly. That's a great attitude to have, and it's very much my mentality too. So I love that. So, so you were. So you did your, you did your, you know, broken up, but you did your three years at Full Sail and you had a couple of different capstone. You had a capstone project there. Yeah, because. [00:30:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:30] Speaker A: The first person. Shoot. You kind of built. Yeah. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Before. Yeah, I did a. I did two projects at Full sail. And then one of my own, like right before I had gotten the internship for, for ZeniMax. So I did. So one was a. There were. Two were group projects. The, the. We had like a wave shooter where you had to reach like a certain amount, like a thousand points to, you know, to win the game essentially. Then you had, it was a first person shooter. You had enemy AI that was like just spawn from the sky and drop down and chase the player. And then you have these like floating like turret looking things that will always just chase you around and follow you around and start shooting at you. So you like had to dodge the bullets from there from that and then also try to not get killed by the enemy AI chasing you. And they were I believe like three different bullet types that were just collectible pickups. And then like you had a health drop. And then I'd like made the noises for like, for the guns. Pew pew, pew, pew pew pew pew pew. It was hilarious. But I mean we couldn't find any. We didn't want it to be like everyone else's weren't using the same, you know, sound. So I was like, let me just make a sound and this will be funny and cool. And then the one after that was our capstone that I put on there. It was a third person. Like you were, it was, it was like inspired by a game called Javanna which was like, you had like, you had like elemental powers and you would pick up like new abilities and stuff. So and we kind of like did that here where we. You would. You're kind of like the avatar, but not really. And you could pick up a water ability and you can like run on water. And so I, I worked on like a rock ability where you can like pick it up like a Jedi and you know, sling it around and throw it and stuff. And then after that I tried a, a game jam with some people, with people. And that was terrible. That was a really bad experience for me because I. It ended up being like two people of the like six of us doing a lot of the work. And I was like, you know, you're gonna get what you got and that's it. And it was a lot of people like saying they'll do stuff without doing things. And it's kind of like how. And it kind of reminded me how like dedicated you have to be to want to be a game designer or game developer. Because it's like you can say you, you want to do it, but you have to put the work in. You know, you like every you know, you can go on, you can be a guy on Reddit and just be like, I hate this game because this and the third, all right, do something about it. You know, showcase, do it. Go on, open Unreal Engine. That's free. Or Unity. That's free. Or Go Dot, that's free. And learn how to design something and you know, go through the process and understand why you go, why they decided to go on and why didn't made that decision, you know, and then that's where, that's what it felt like. I was, I was designing or the kind of people I was designing with. When I was doing the, the Game Jam, it was like a lot of people were just saying they could do it and you know, you, you rely on them to do the thing that they said they would do. And then when the, when the deadlight comes, they got nothing. And I'm like, all right, now I'm spending all night working on this on my own. Because, you know, you couldn't fulfill your end of the bargain. And then you wonder why you don't have a job in the game industry. And you know, and then, and then after that I, I decided to work on a project on my own. It was a first person shooter where I was kind of learning the fundamentals of what makes a first person shooter. And so like I did like weapon sway, you know, like, you know, camera movement when you're moving left and right. So like the weapons with you, um, you had fall damage, you had AI that would chase the player, then explode. And it kind of, kind of like in Destiny where you had the, the, the, the metal like ball looking dudes and they would just like chase you and explode. I forgot what they were called but. And then they had a spider that would chase and melee the player. And so like, like on the player side I, I also did like the different, what's it called, different shooting types. So you had a single shot, a full auto, semi auto, you had a recoil as well. So there, the, the recoil was always different dynamic recoil. And, and yeah, that's, that was a lot of what I did. And then also like some of the level design on there as well. Um, and while I was doing that, I had gotten the internship for Saint imax. And yeah, and it was funny because for that I was like, hey, I messaged someone from HR on LinkedIn and I was like, hey, I introduced myself, I was like, hey, my name is Orlando. I applied to this position a couple months ago. It was both for, I think it was for internship And I think it was just regular designer at the time. And yeah, I had gotten, I got a message back, he was like, hey, yeah, this looks like it's for our, one of our other offices. I'll take a look. And I was like, okay, cool, thanks. And, and then I got an email for an internship and I was like, internship? I don't remember applying to this. And then, yeah, the rest is, I guess the rest is history. Where, you know, I, I, you know, I joined you guys as an intern for six months and then I was full time combat designer. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I definitely want to get into that because I want to understand that, that, that experience of being an intern and sort of moving internal. But, but just quickly the, the, the project that you did on your own, like what, what triggered you to do that and what were you sort of trying to achieve when you, when you sort of set out to do that? That demo? [00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was trying to essentially showcase that I can at least showcase and learn what makes a first person shooter or so immersive. And, you know, what are the fundamentals that I should start with before I start expanding on anything else. And I kind of like, I fell in love with this concept too when working at ZeniMax when, you know, when we would kind of, yeah, we would want to create something awesome and unique, but it was also important to focus on doubling down and getting this, getting a solid foundation of what our fundamentals are. And I kind of started with that already with, you know, this side project. I was, I was like, I was like, I want to do this, that and the third, and I want to, you know, I want to do so many cool things. And then I was like, I have so many ideas, but let me calm down. Right, because you can just, you can just be on your computer writing stuff up as for like days and not make anything. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:10] Speaker B: And so what was important to me was trying to get an understanding of what makes this, you know, what about this shooter am I trying to do, right? And what, how should I, what, where should I start? And what was important to me was understanding how to create a solid foundation of the mechanics. And that was, I guess to me the most important part of this demo was like, okay, how can I get these mechanics down so that they don't look like I just picked up Unreal Engine and just changed the demo and just boom, boom, boom, boom. Because it's just, as soon as you shoot, there's nothing, you don't really get any recall, at least at the time. I mean, now you have like a whole sleuth of things that come when you open up. Unreal. But yeah, at the time I wanted to make something that felt unique and I guess a little different than what you could see with everyone else making. Because what was important to me was like, I keep saying the fundamentals and getting them down, packed so that way I can see. So, hey, I designed this. I know it's really basic, but this is showcasing that I can understand the fundamentals before I start expanding on something and making it more. Because if you're, you know, if. Let's say, you know, let's say I'm making a first person shooter with like, you know, all these, like doom, like all these, you know, doom abilities and stuff like that, right. If the shooting doesn't feel good, everything else is all I'm going to want to do is, you know, use the weapons or use the, use the abilities that come with, with, you know, the, the shooter. I'm like, I don't. But. And I'm not going to want to shoot anything because shooting doesn't feel good. So to me, it was important to make sure that what you're gonna be doing the entire time feels good. And then, you know, secondary to that are whatever extra that I want to put on it. You know, like, you don't want to go to a pizza place and the cheese pizza tastes disgusting. And then you're like, oh, I'm gonna put toppings on it, maybe it'll taste better then. No, it's still disgusting just with toppings, you know. [00:40:20] Speaker A: That's a great analogy. Yeah. I mean, again, that's super impressive, Orlando, because you're absolutely right. Yeah. I think it's so easy when you go make your own project to just have, you know, sky high dreams and go like, yeah, it's going to be all these things, but if you can't even make the basic mechanics feel good, then what good are the dreams? Yeah, I think that's. And I think I applaud you for sort of approaching it that way because that is. Right. And like you said, that's something that, you know, that we. A similar approach that we had at Zos. So. So you're working on that demo, you had already applied to join, you'd seen some openings at Zos. Had you applied elsewhere or just. [00:41:00] Speaker B: I played everywhere. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got. It's funny because my first interview ever and I've only ever gotten two interviews and they were both with Zos. One. Yeah, one was, was for a monetization designer On ESO and working on the store there, essentially. And I. I did a terrible job on that interview. It was just unlucky the entire time because. So I did the interview while I was at work, and I was like, during my break time, so I was like, I'll just do the interview now. And I had, like, my. I had notes on my iPad. I had, like, things that I wanted to say. I had questions I had, you know, I was prepared, and my iPad died, and it wasn't charging, and that's where all my notes was. So I was like, oh, so, yeah, so I went in blind, and it was so bad. Like, he was like, you have any questions? Like. Like, no. And I did. I had questions. I had things to say. I had, you know, I had had written down, like, what I wanted to improve on the. On the store, what I didn't want to see much of. And. And because, like, at the time, there was a lot of concerns of, like, oh, you're. You're seeing so many things that I can get in the world in the store. Like, I. You know, you don't, you know, as a. As a. If I'm a player coming into ESO and I'm going to be spending reward money, I don't want to spend money on things that I can just find right in front of me. So, like, a lot of that was like. Or it was more of that essentially on my notes, and it kind of just fell through. Then a year later, I get my second interview with you. With you, and. [00:42:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:47] Speaker A: That's funny. Well, I can't say I'm not sad the ESO one didn't work out because, yeah, we got to hire you, but so. So you got the intern role. How was that? Because, you know, obviously, intern is a very, you know, it's. It's. It's a excellent entry point. [00:43:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:05] Speaker A: To video games, but it's also a very challenging one, I think. Yeah. So how was your experience being an intern? [00:43:12] Speaker B: I'd say my experience was good because I. I was able to knock out a lot of my 30, 60, 90 days in the one month that I was, you know, an intern. And I guess it was unexpected, I guess, for all of us for that to happen, because it was like. Because I was able to understand, you know, what we were working on. What, you know, what the. What the engine. You know, the. The engine that we were using felt like, you know, how I was learning how to design on there. I was reading and writing documents. I was, you know, I was making Things already. And I was also working full time at the same time. Absolutely. [00:43:54] Speaker A: Yeah. You're bouncing again. You were juggling a full time job and a full time commitment, so. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, but I, you know, I did good enough, right? I was hired. [00:44:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you hit the ground running, man, like, and that's impressive. And how much of that, I'm curious how much of that was because you joined as a combat designer when you join the combat team, but it sounds like full. So you got a pretty broad design, you know? Yeah, a broad swath of design that you worked on. So, so did that help? Do you feel like when you hit, when you, you know, even though you joined the combat team, did you feel well equipped to, you know, tackle the design? How did you hit the ground? I guess my question is, how did you hit the ground running so fast? How do you. [00:44:37] Speaker B: I guess it was funny because. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Before. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Our interview, my portfolio was level design. So I don't know if you know this, but my entire portfolio, my resume, my cover letter, like, everything, like, because I felt like I was more prepared for level design than I was for anything else. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:00] Speaker B: And then, and then when I got the, the, the interview, when I think it was Amanda sent me the email saying, hey, this is an interview for your combat design internship. I was like, what? Combat design? Oh, my God. I got two days. I literally spent my whole weekend redoing my, my web, my portfolio, redoing my resume, redoing my cover letter. Like, all the stuff that I already had saved on the website. I changed it all in, like, the nick of time to be combat. And I didn't realize how easy it was. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:40] Speaker B: So for me, it's like, I don't like, I mean, it sounds crazy, but like, to me, I was, it was like, oh, I kind of did this already. I. Yeah, I was. Oh yeah, I was already making, you know, weapons and making abilities and stuff. Like, and, you know, I was explaining all these things already. Like, it was so easy for me to. That transition from, like, wanting to be a level designer to being a combat designer was so easy that I didn't realize how easy it was. And it was it and it felt. And I was done. Like, I was in like a day and I thought I was going to be spending, like forever working on it and changing and all this. But no, it was just. So I didn't realize that I already had that, you know, experience doing combat and essentially gameplay design under my belt because I was, I was so into the fact that I was. Oh, yeah, I'll just do level design. And I didn't like level design. I was like, I don't want to do block meshes and, you know, draw it on the paper and, you know, be like, oh, yeah, we're here. This there. Like, to me, I was like, I don't want to do this, and. But I was like, I'm going to do it anyway because I feel like this is the only experience I have. But when I got that, you know, like I said, when I got that interview, I didn't realize that I was already doing that, and it kind of made sense, and it kind of made. Yeah, it brought everything together for me where it's like, oh, yeah, I'm. I do combat stuff. I do gameplay stuff. I'm player focused. I love, you know, when the player has something in their hands, I want to make sure that they can feel like they're that character. [00:47:04] Speaker A: I mean, going right back to what you said about Spider man, right? Genesis of this whole thing. Yeah, but it took. That's interesting that you hadn't recognized it. I had a conversation with Lehman yesterday, you know, in one of the other episodes, and he had a very similar journey where, like, he found a role and then realized, oh, actually, no, I'm. I've been doing loads of this. It sounds very similar that you. You kind of felt like level design was the thing you should say. But actually, yeah, been. You've been doing a lot of combat, you know, in the background, and. Yeah, okay. [00:47:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:47:37] Speaker A: So. Yeah, yeah, okay. So you got. So you got the internship. You. You managed to, you know, very, very aptly, I would say, change your. Change your portfolio to combat. And, you know, I had no idea. It made complete sense to me when I read it. And so you join the comic team, you hit the ground running. And. And, yeah, so. And I guess maybe that's why. Right. Is because you. You had been doing a lot of combat design. It was in your bones almost. And. Yeah, so it was a natural. A natural. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was a natural. Yeah, it was a natural transition. And when, you know, when I'm. While, you know, during that internship, I was like, this is. This is so easy. Like, I. I, like, when. When I was like, you know, I was. I was making things. I was, you know, I was writing. Writing stuff, and I was like, this kind of just makes sense, you know, like, I should be here. [00:48:25] Speaker A: Right? [00:48:25] Speaker B: Like, to me, I was like, I. This is. This is my. This is my thing. This is my jam. And, you know, you know, writing. Writing comps and stuff, like, that, and, and like, that was like, so easy for me to do. It was like, okay, all right, you know, why am I, why am I talking about this comp here? And, you know, I would have, I would write about what the comp is and then have a pace before that, saying the reason why I chose this, why this fits into our game and, or, yeah, in our game, our product and, you know, why, what we should take from this, you know, and like, what designs I think would fit really well. And all of that was just so, so natural that it was, it was kind of weird. [00:49:12] Speaker A: It's great. And how was that? Because that was sort of really your first professional game design, you know, game development role. So how was that transition for you going? I mean, obviously you've had some experience at full service, you'd had some experience working in teams, but how was that transition into the, into a company? How did that, that feel for you? [00:49:29] Speaker B: It was nerve wracking because I wasn't sure if, if whenever I was like, designing something, it was right. And obviously I would ask and be like, hey, is this all right? Is this okay? You know, and then I would always want to learn why, you know, we're doing something and, you know, ask a million one questions and, you know, you know, Q was my, you know, supervisor at the time. And, you know, it was, it was awesome having him, you know, kind of give me that, that direction and be like, hey, you know, you want to design like this because, you know, this, because of this, that and the other. And I'm like, okay, cool, I understand now. And I'm like, okay, well, why don't we do that? Because that doesn't make sense. I'm like, all right, you're right. Thanks. You. Yeah, he was straightforward. And I, I, I honestly, I, I love that. So, like, I, I like when people are straightforward with me and, you know, kind of just be like, don't do that. Why are you doing that? And I'm like, I don't, I don't know. Because it feels right. He goes like, no. I'm like, all right, sounds good. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Constraints are good, right? They help you, help you design better. Okay. So, so nerve wracking process. Did you feel like you kind of got your feet under you because you were an intern for what, six. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Yeah, for six months. [00:50:43] Speaker A: Six months, yeah. [00:50:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:44] Speaker A: And did you feel like you kind of got your feet under you? [00:50:48] Speaker B: Mm, yeah, I felt like I got, at the beginning, I was, I was nervous because I, you know, I was like, what am I doing here? I felt like a fraud. [00:51:01] Speaker A: You know, the only one, Orlando. [00:51:04] Speaker B: But, you know, over time, it was like. It kind of. It kind of just like, fell on, like, it kind of just felt natural and. And I guess, you know, over. You know, and then when I got hired fully, it kind of. It kind of like solidified that feeling for me. I was like, okay, I'm. I'm here now. And, yeah, I felt like. I felt like a kid at this. At the candy store, essentially. [00:51:31] Speaker A: You finally realized your dream. [00:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was something. I was like, all right, I'm good at this, you know. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, you. I mean, I think, like, you know, hit the ground running. You. You kind of took on a lot of difficult stuff. You. I think it's also quite. Especially in the remote environment that, you know, that some companies are now. And, you know, and were over this period, it's quite. Quite a communication challenge as well. Right. You have to be able to express yourself and communicate and ask questions and. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's. [00:52:04] Speaker B: How did you find that it was good for me? Because, like, I guess the only people that I talked to were in California and, you know, I would. And then when I'm. When I was working, you know, during my internship, when I was working my other job, you know, all. All Q cared about was results. It was like, get your. Just get your stuff done, you know, and, you know, join the meetings that you need to join. And I would. I, like, I would be at my other job with a. With an earpiece on, in a teams meeting, you know, and then go into another room, be like, yeah, you know, we're talking about this, that and the other. And then I'll. I won't do anything in Engine until I get home. And then that also helped because we had our other engineer in the other side of the planet, so. So, like, it kind of just worked out, you know, like we, you know, and, you know, any of the help that I needed, I could just talk to him about. About any of that. And. [00:52:59] Speaker A: But again, Orlando, the dedication that takes, right? You're juggling two jobs, which, again, sounds familiar to you, sounds like you've done that before, but, you know, to have that dedication to juggle those two jobs, especially the internship, and once you got hired, you were sort of able to, you know, just focus on. On. On the one role. But, yeah, that's. That's a lot of dedication and effort to, you know, to show up and do a good job whilst also doing another job. [00:53:26] Speaker B: And they had no idea. [00:53:28] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I think. Yeah. You did a very good job of juggling both roles and getting stuff done. Right. You know, again, I think. Yeah, that's absolutely right. You showed up, you got the work done and did it well, and that's all that mattered. So. Okay, so getting towards the end of this, but there's a couple of other questions I love to ask. So you mentioned that your mum was a big supporter of you kind of in your early days. Like, is that. Did your family kind of relate to your job? You know, was it, you know, do they understand what you do? Do you have. Is there anyone else in your family that kind of relates to what you do or. [00:54:08] Speaker B: No, I'm, like, the only person. My. My family, like, some of my cousins play video games and they're. They're like, once the next Elder Scrolls coming out, I'm like, I don't know, dude. I don't know that I'm not on that team, but. And some of my friends do, you know, and. But yeah, nobody else is in, like, this industry or in any tech industry in my family. They all have, you know, kind of normal jobs. So it's like, it's. It's okay to get away from, you know, I guess, tech talk or work and, you know, being like, oh, you know, this studio, this, this. I'm like, all right. Okay. Yeah, interesting. [00:54:49] Speaker A: Right. And so do you. When you're sort of relate, you know, hanging out with those folks that aren't necessarily in. Into video games or in the industry or anything like that, do you find it, you know, difficult because you're kind of in your industry and they're in their industry and, you know, they don't overlap very much or they don't relate to each other very much. Or do you enjoy that? Do you enjoy. Almost imply that you kind of enjoy like, switching on, off and not thinking about it? [00:55:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I like switching off. Sometimes I do want to talk about it and, you know, kind of, like, relate to somebody. Be like, dude, this is crazy. Oh, my God, this has happened. And, you know, I can't. But that's okay because I can just do that work. [00:55:28] Speaker A: Yeah, we all talk about it all day. Okay, got it. And then you. So you've mentioned, you know, you've obviously worked on Combat's kind of a passion, although you've done a lot of broad design, which is. Which is great. How does that relate to who you are as a gamer? Like, you know, the stuff you've worked on, is it, you know, does it overlap with what you play? Do you play very different Stuff like how does, how do you as a game relate to you as a game developer? [00:55:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess the, when I kind of had got my, my claws into combat design, I started to look into other designs way differently and I would like, you know, so for like example, like other games that I'm now play, I'll be like, why are you doing this this way? Why are you doing it that way? Like this doesn't make any sense. You know, like in the design sense I would, I wouldn't do that because you know, as a, as a comic designer I like the combat should be this way or fluid this way. Especially when it comes to like third person games or first person games. It's like, like I kind of have more of a, an understanding as to like, you know, how we were designing things and then you know, being like, okay, I wouldn't, you know, do it this way. This doesn't feel right. This feels a little janky. The animation doesn't fit well here. Oh, I can't combo this way. And why can't I do that? I have the animation time to do that. All this animation is taking too long. And you know like there's so many, there's so much more that I kind of jot down and, and be like I want, I want to fix this. Or I've been playing some like Soul Frame because I was able to get access to Soul Frame and I like I'm on their discord just running down combat feedback. Like I literally have three, a three part series where it's like melee combat. Why is it this way? Environment UI UX like this, this, you know, you guys should update this and change this. I mean, I mean it's in pre Alpha but, but like to me I'm like okay, if, if, if you're in pre Alpha now and you're just adding more things without fixing what's, what's the fun. And this goes back to the fundamentals and you know, like it's important to me as a player to get a better grip of the fundamentals. Especially when you're in pre Alpha. I don't want to have to celebrate, you know, Halloween on a pre Alpha game where I'm like, you should be spending that time fixing the melee combat. And because it's not that good right now, you know. And so like to me it's like, it's important to, you know, like when it comes to games like that, how good are the fundamentals? And then when it comes to like release games, how do all those, how good Is everything meshed together? And, like, if I'm aiming, can I see where my bullets are going and. Or. Or are they going to hit exactly where I want them to go? If. If they're not, then why is that a design choice? Is that a limitation on the engine? You know, like, there's. There's so many things that I don't know too, you know, like design decisions and stuff like that and why they mesh together. So, like, I'm more. I guess now I'm more curious than I was before because I'm like, I want to be part of your team and understand why you went in this direction, and all that's left now is for me to apply. [00:58:46] Speaker A: Well, but I think that goes back to that desire you seem to have, you know, a sort of innate desire to understand why. Right. Understand why this design is this way, why this game feels this way while this mechanic feels that way. And I think that's, again, that's a real powerful. That's a great way of approaching things. That's a great way of learning. [00:59:04] Speaker B: And then it goes back to, like, my desire of wanting to make. Take whatever is there and making it better, because I want to understand, you know, why you did it, why you went this way. Okay. How can we take that and, you know, let it flourish? Because sometimes it's like. Sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't feel like it's like. Like it feels like the flower is there, but it's not blooming. Yeah. And you just need a little bit of water, you know, just a little bit of me and another great analogy. [00:59:35] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think. I think that's the. That's another. You know, so far, everyone, I'm excited. Like, man, every one of these conversations, there's been this kind of, like, interest. Interesting corollary between who you are as a person, who you are as a gamer, and. And why you do what you do in development. Right. And. And I think you've got another great story where this. That version of you was in you, and you didn't know it was there until a role came along and went, hey, could you do this? And you're like, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's what I love to do. That's great. I love that. And I think that that's. That that's such a human, you know, thing. That's sort of why I do this podcast. Right? Is because so many of us put our life into. Into. And so much of our life into these games, and so much of what we put into these games is who we are as people and who we are as humans. They are so intertwined. I think uncovering those stories is. Is really fascinating to me. I find it really exciting and interesting how it relates to my story, how it does. It doesn't. Yeah, I can look at. It's so cool. [01:00:40] Speaker B: So, and I've mentioned this, too. Like, I guess when I was. When I was interviewing with Bethesda, where I was, like, where I said, you know, it's important to be curious, because if you're not curious about how something works or if you're not curious about why something doesn't work and you're not going to grow as a designer, you're not going to get a better understanding of what you're making. You're not going to, you know, understand the designs that other people chose. And, you know, to me, it's important to be curious, to be, like, wondering why, you know, why you do this, why you did that. Okay, well, if we do it this way, what happens if we do it the other way? And, you know, I think. I think for me, I'm always curious about how things work, even if I already know. You know, sometimes I prefer to get someone else's perspective because I already know something, I may not see it the same way they do. So I'll just be like, hey, I thought about this design. What do you think? I think it fits well, but because I'm the one that did it, I have a subjective point of view, so I would prefer, you know, outside opinion on, you know, everything, especially when it comes to design, because I think that's really important. Here. [01:01:55] Speaker A: Here. Orlando, I admire that you have that mentality. You know, I'm much older than you. [01:02:00] Speaker B: You. [01:02:00] Speaker A: And it took me a lot longer to get that mentality. So I couldn't say it better myself. And I really thank you. Thank you for the time. This has been another great conversation. I've really enjoyed it. And yeah, thank you for sharing your story, for sure. [01:02:14] Speaker B: Thanks. I appreciate it.