Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello everyone. It's time for Another episode of DevtoDev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day.
I'm here excited to have another conversation with a former friend and colleague. John, would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Hi, I'm Bao, actually currently working as a lead combat designer over at Skybound Games under the Quarter up studio. And I guess I've been doing this for, oh my gosh, 26, six years now.
Yeah, been. Been doing it, been doing it off and on for, for quite some time and everything.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: That's good.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Plenty of history to dive into and, and plenty to kind of get. Plenty to help get to know you.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: A lot to make fun of, you.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Know, I mean, ditto. Right, We've got a few of those.
[00:00:47] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: I always like to start this conversation with my. One of my favorite questions.
What first inspired you about video games?
[00:00:56] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, that's. That's personal, man.
Well, given our age, like we like, I, I'm not, I'm pretty sure you, you, you have a semi similar upbringing where I got into it pretty darned early.
First game was Pong.
Got into the 2600 or the, the Atari, like pretty early as well.
One of the very.
That I was obsessed with was Centipede.
It's one of the only games that have actually I rolled in such.
And it was just one of those things where like I played it.
I was like, this is cool. Like, it's very, very specific. It's very straightforward, like what you're trying to achieve and stuff. But then I, I had some of those gamer instincts. So I figured out how to game the system, you know, and I'd set up the, the tunnel where basically like I would kill the centipedes in a very specific pattern. So they'd always have to go down this one center point. And it was just easy to just mow them down. And it was just one of those things that, like, once I figured that out, like, once that clicked and I was like, okay. And I just did it until like I flipped the, the score. And once I saw that aspect of, you know, for games, I'm like, I can try to do some clever stuff just to, you know, do the game what do. Do, make the game do what I want it to do, you know, kind of stuff. And like, it was just kind of cool to me. And like, as you know, games are very different media. Like, it's, it's, you know, not music where you're just listening to it or it's not movies where you're listening, watching. You know, it's not a comic book where you're reading and the imagination takes place. It's like it's all of the above as well as, you know, you know, hands on. Like you're actually affecting what's going on on the screen.
And there's something wildly compelling about it. It's like, you know, it's the, the. The analogy I used to use is like, you know, choose your own adventure, but you're actively, you know, controlling the narrative as you go and stuff too. And it's, it's all about experiences and storytelling and what the game designers are trying to have you feel like and everything too. So it's like I've always been interested as to all the different stories that people have to tell and everything. So it's always been a very compelling aspect of games and what you could do across the board.
[00:03:34] Speaker A: Interesting. Okay, so an element of kind of breaking the rules, then kind of, here's the rule set, like the Centipede example, right? Here's the rule set and. Oh, you found a way to kind of game that system and break the, you know, the rules for, you know, to make it function the way you want it to function. And then an element of kind of that immersive experience, the player story that's kind of grabbed you. Was that, was there a particular game that grabbed you on that side early on? Because obviously Centipede stories, you know, what story. But were there kind of early games that really connected with you there?
[00:04:03] Speaker B: Well, it's, it's funny too, because a lot of the games and you know, in the past, like, there was no real narrative. You're just in a scenario doing something. But even like a game like Pitfall, like, you're just this dude, you know, jumping over crocodiles and like swinging across vines and stuff like that, you know, and then you actually get to, you know, the, the prize at the end and stuff. Like, in my mind, I was like, at one point I just stopped. I'm like, why am I doing this? You know, and stuff. And then I'm like. And then the whole Indiana Jones correlation and stuff like that too. And it was like, okay, cool. And then like, that's. That's what kind of. Not necessarily lit the fire, but it was like, it like hinted at stuff and there was, there was a game on. Oh my gosh. I think it was the Commodore. It was basically one of the old fantasy kind of RPG style games. It's like the, the most basic of pixel graphics. Where you're like this, this character like 16 pixels tall and you have like this, you know, three pixel long sword and you're like, da, da, da. But you're like fighting things and like you're exploring dungeons and like, the way they portray that, where you had a very limited, you know, cone of vision around you and stuff like that. Like, there was something super interesting about that where I'm like, okay, like, I feel like in a, in a bigger, grander story here, you know? And then like, like I said, even with, even with those super limited graphics, you still felt something like there's, there's more than just like what's being shown on this little, little kind of screen and stuff too. So that's when things started to really, really pick up. And then of course, then we get to more modern gaming, you know, where it's just like, oh, there's actual storylines and like, people actually delivering like compelling dialogue and stuff like that too. And that's been evolving like over the years as well. So it's like I said, at the end of the day, like, we're, we're storytellers, you know, and stuff too. And, you know, along with that story is. And experience in stuff too. So it's very different. We're trying to be as immersive as possible a lot of times.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah, got it. So even a basic context of a game like Pitfall was evocative to you and kind of got you excited. And that's cool.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: And where did you grow up? Where was this happening?
[00:06:20] Speaker B: I was living in Southern California. I was in San Diego and such. And it's funny because around that time, arcades really weren't that, that, that prevalent around here and stuff at the time. I actually had to take a bus to go like two or three cities over just to go to an arcade, you know, or if I happen to know of like a, like a convenience store or like a, a gas station or sometimes like a pizza shop or something like that. They might have like one or two cabs and they would rotate them out. And so I had this thing where every like two or three weeks I'd go to a couple different spots that were in our city, you know, and then I would like, okay, cool, what do they have? Oh, it's the same stuff. Okay. You know, I just peace out and stuff, you know. But then if there was everything, anything new, then like, I would just be coming back there like every week and stuff and trying to get in some, some matches and stuff too. But it Was it was kind of tough like in the early games of, of like arcades and stuff. Especially down here. Like there wasn't really much available and it took a while, you know, before it actually really started taking off and stuff too. But, but yeah, I miss, I missed the arcade days. Like there was. There's something interesting. Like it's, it's.
I mean for one it's the, the social aspect is because you're there oftentimes with other people and stuff too and like you're all playing the games and like kind of having like a shared experience with something. Especially if there's something that's like super compelling like oh, it's a co op style game or something that's like a head to head game, like a fighting game or something.
There's something different about that, you know, as opposed to like, you know, now it's, it's. It's almost all home gaming. So it's like there's always that detached feeling. It's like I'm having this experience and there's other people, you know, may possibly like in the ether that they're also having this experience but it's separate at the same time. So.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So those early arcade days kind of really grabbed you then. The rotation of the game, the format, the social nature of it. Yeah, it was kind of addictive as well. Yeah, that's cool.
And did you have any siblings, any. Any other people in your family that were gamers at the time?
[00:08:27] Speaker B: I was definitely the, the black sheep.
I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, no nothing, you know, none of that sorts. Like I played D and D. Like I actually started watching anime around that time like in the. It's, it's early, early days and stuff and I love video games and fantasy novels and like Horse like all that stuff. Like all that, that old school, you know, geeky type stuff. So it's my, my brother and sister were into more standard, you know, high schoolish kind of stuff and everything. So like my brother was into like track and football and like skating and. And my sister was, you know, movies, friends, all that stuff like you know, not. They weren't really, they didn't really subscribe to the, you know, that type of frivolity as it were.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: Got it. So you were kind of the, the primary gamer and I guess when you went to school do you know, did you kind of find some, some fellow folks there that were into video games?
[00:09:28] Speaker B: No, actually, because it was like. It's funny because at the time like games really weren't like they were, they were kind of shunned like you were, if you played games, like, you were like, oh, you're, you're like the geek, the nerd, the, the what have you and stuff like that. And especially because it's like that there was a lot of demonizing of that type of stuff. So like I said, DND at the time is like, oh, it's the devil's work, you know, in like hard rock and metal and all that stuff. Like, it was, it was kind of lumped together, you know, by a lot of different people. So they had like some, some like the metal heads. Like some of them might play some video games sometimes like that, but they were their own crowds. And usually like the gamers were like the, the, the outcasts, you know, in some way and stuff too. And.
But at the time it's like it was like, whatever, like, this is just some fun stuff. So like, I'm just gonna do what I'm gonna do. So. Yeah, good luck.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Yeah, got it. Okay. So. Yeah, so, so school kind of, you know, one of the few gamers and did you go, did you go to college? Like, did he, did he have a change there or.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: No, the. What, what actually wound up happening when I started meeting friends that became gamers was soon after got out of high school, where some of my high school friends at the time, like, they were, they were my group that I used to play like Dungeons Dragons with and stuff. And we, like, you know, we were just general, like buddies in general. Like, some of them actually wound up getting on PCs around that time.
And one of them in particular actually had his own like, main computer, but he was kind of like one of those, those enthusiasts. So he actually had like his main, he had like a backup then like a backup backup paper put together with all like the, the whatever leftover parts that he had and stuff.
And we would do land parties, you know, so it's like a bunch of them were, they were going to college at the time I was working.
And then on the weekends, like every so often, like, we'd all get together, order some pizzas and like, that's when, that's when we started PC gaming. And the, the funny thing about that was in the early days, like I said, he, he put the, the, those PCs together with whatever he had left over.
So my early days of, of PC gaming was with a trackball and a mouse and keyboard.
So playing counter strike with the thumb was, it was a very interesting experience.
Same thing with like playing Starcraft, you know, or Starcraft 2 and stuff like that, or Brood War in particular was our Jam Unreal Tournament and stuff like that. But trying to play those types of games on a trackball was, was a, it was a challenge. But it was one of those things where I like, I, I'd never been exposed to PC gaming before then because we, you know, could never afford a, a computer. So it was like, like whole new world. I was like this is, this is some cool stuff.
And it was one of those things where I just like I, it kind of, it renewed that interest because I had actually been playing like console games for a while growing up and stuff. Even to the point where one of my cousins who was, who was quite a bit older, he actually would buy like the Commodores and like the, all the, the latest computers or like software and stuff and he would bring them over so he could like ha out with the family.
And he'd always get mad at me because I would actually beat whatever game he'd actually have on his computer. While they were talking. I'm just like, oh, okay. And like I just go through things and just burn through all of his, his games and like, like it was just, it was funny.
But like I said like that, that kept the interest and everything. And then like I said as soon as I was playing on my, my friend's PC, like that's, that's when it really kicked into like high gear. When I saw like, you know, all the like, like first person shooters and like, you know, MMOs and all that stuff, like it was so, so different. I'm like, like this is, this is some really cool stuff. And yeah, that's actually what kind of led me to getting into the industry was during one of our LAN parties, one of my buddies was going to SDSU and they had a job posting for quality assurance over at Midway in San Diego at the time. And I was like, what's quality assurance? He's like oh no, it's, it's testing for the games and so on and so forth. And I was like, wait, what? Like you get to play the.
Whoa. Like what the heck, I'm totally down.
And so he went and he went back to the job board and he grabbed all information, gave it to me and brought like, sent in my, my resume and you know, made some phone calls and so on and so forth. And to this day, like, I don't remember if I told you this.
My, my claim to fame was actually being the only one person that, that got this specific question during the phone interview. Right.
And. Cause they. They would do the standard. Like, oh, you know, what's your experience? Like, you know, what do you do this? You know, what's your hours? Like, you know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What's your background? And he stopped and he said, okay, I have to ask to install applicants. He's like, what's the average airspeed of a. Of a swallow? And I'm like, oh, is that a African or a European swallow? He's like, yep. Wait, what did you just say? I'm like, yeah, is that an African or European swallow? And he's like, you're the only person that's ever got that right. Can you come in tomorrow? Like.
Like, it was the. The super most random, like, geekiest, like, claim to fame ever. But it literally got me the job.
Like, that's what set me on the path, you know, to. To. Wait, that's.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: That's some. That's a Monty Python reference, isn't it? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So Monty Python reference got you a job at Midway. I love that.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. It's hilarious, too, because he actually, he's like, we're supposed to ask that question to catch people off guard and see what they. What they're like, you know. Yeah, exactly. And stuff. But he's like, you didn't even miss a beat. You just give me the actual answer. And I'm like, you already know that one. You know, he's like, it was just. Yeah, it was super cool.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: I love that. So, so had you at any point before that thought about getting into the industry or did it. Did it take sort of your friends saying, oh, there's a QA role? Was that. Was that what triggered it?
[00:15:56] Speaker B: Well, back then, like, getting. The industry was so opaque. Like, you had no idea. Like, do. Do I just, like, randomly start calling companies? Like, how does this even work? Like, it's. It's like trying to get into movies, you know, or any other, like, like, really well established industry. It's like, how do you get your foot in the door? Like, who do you actually reach out to? Like, you know, now? Like, there's so many resources available to anybody that wants to, you know, show some interest and see, you know, about getting.
Getting in anywhere. Like, there's opportunities and there. There's ways to do so, and there's even, like, ways to prep for that. You know, there's. There's like, Guild hall and, like, other colleges or training courses and stuff. Or honestly, too, like, given how many engines are available now that have so many available resources online, like you could do so much just to prep for that, you know, you know that, that possibility and stuff too. But like back then, like you have no idea. Like there are so many games that were made by people like in their garage, you know, and so on and so forth that, that they built that up to a company and then you know, once they're there you're like, wait, how do I even talk to these people? Like, what the heck? So that's like I said, that's because my buddy randomly saw that job posting and he's just like, hey, you know, John might like this and you know about my, like this. Okay, cool. And stuff. So yeah, it's to be. Yeah, it is.
[00:17:17] Speaker A: So you, so you're, you're at QA at Midway for about a year or so.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Was that testing home games or arcade games or both or.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: It's a bit of both because when I first showed up, it was primarily the tail end of arcade games, but then it, it dipped straight into like console stuff and back then was, oh my gosh, what was my first.
I try to remember because the one that actually like put in the most time on was Ready to Rumble part two. Like that was, that was the one that, that where I actually got my in as a designer. Because what happened was we were doing in house testing for a while on some local projects. Like it was a football game and there was a basket. It was a lot of the adult school, you know, Midway Games library. And then we got to Ready to Rumble and they needed some folks to work off site.
And typically when they do off site testing, it was towards the end of a product or the end of the dev cycle where like, okay, we're getting ready for submission, so on and so forth. So they would send some groups of QA to people that didn't. To developers at the time that didn't have any QA available to them to be able to do regressions like on site and be able to get them the feedback as, as quickly as possible. And so they would send groups of like two to three people depending on how big the project was. And usually they would do it for about a month and then they would switch people out. You know, they're like, okay, depending on, on how long the cycle was and stuff too.
I actually wound up, once I got there, I wound up staying there for like three months, like off site, working with the developers and stuff. And that actually as it so happens, like, you know, led me to getting to Know, and, you know, like, really be able to communicate more and more with the team itself and like the, The CEO and like all the producers and everybody involved in stuff too. And that's, you know, it was just again, like going back to that. That meant to be kind of thing where it's like they kept requesting for me to, to, to stay there because, like, oh, no, we want, you know, John, because he, he knows, you know, he knows the process, he knows what's going. Going down. Like, he knows who to talk to, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So to the point when, finally, when we finished and like, I actually went back to San Diego to work on site again about four, four plus months later, they actually reached out to me and said, hey, what you doing? Like, you want to be a game designer? You know, it was like, what?
Yes, please. Like, it was.
And it was one of those things because I didn't even know that was. That was the thing. Like, I had no idea. Like, especially at that time where you're like, again, because we talk about it's the, the gates. It's like, how do you get in contact with people? Like, how to become, you know, go. Go into qa, how do you go into, you know, design? How do you go into, like, engineering or like producer or anything? So it was so opaque. Like, there was nothing. There's no info about anything. Stuff too. So at the time, like, I had no idea. And they just like, hey, how's it going? And I was like, it's good. How you guys been, you know, and everything. And they offered me a spot. And at the time, that was probably.
That was absolutely terrifying to me because it was one of those things because it's like, okay, I would actually be, you know, moving from San Diego up to Orange county on a pretty small salary, you know, and everything too. And by myself and all this other stuff too. Like, I was not in any way, shape or form prepared for any of the above. And it was one of those things too, where it's like, my family wasn't really in favor of my job choices anyways. Like, they were, you know, they were always like, you could do something better. Like, you can, you know, I'm sure you could, you know, find something that's. That's more suited, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just one of those things where as soon as I mentioned it, like, they kind of freaked out. There's like, so you're gonna move off, like, to a completely different city by yourself doing this job. You've never done before, you know, and it's, I'm just like.
But it's what I want to do. Like, this is, this is literally like a dream job for me because I didn't even know.
I didn't even know it was possible, like, you know, as an option and stuff too. And then it just opened up and, and I'm ultimately, like I said, despite, despite the, the friction, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm. I'm gonna commit. Like, I'm, I'm gonna do this because this is what I want to do. If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And I'll come back and stuff too, but I gotta, I gotta take that shot. I gotta take this chance and stuff. And yeah, it was, it was, it was pretty crazy.
But yeah, like, that's, that's what started, like, you know.
[00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And so. So that was point of view. Was it? Is that where you joined? Yeah. So you were there for like four years. So.
So I, I just want to go back quickly that it sounds like you knew games, right? You played a lot, you were good at them, right. You were finishing them quickly, you were kind of polishing them off, you know, knocking through them.
I'm guessing that when you kind of got that opportunity, because first party qa, so you're working on site for a developer is very different to working external. Right. You're right, you know, you're right in with the team. Right. You can go speak to the actual folks. And even better, when you're in an offsite and you're actually working for, you know, directly with the team to help them.
I'm guessing that your instincts for game play, right, to get through the games you play through, you know, finding ways to bend the rules, you know, like you said about sense speed. Yeah. Must have given you kind of a. I mean, clearly gave you kind of a leg up in terms of helping test and helping to improve.
Improve a game and, you know, in this case, ready to rumble.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Well, so the funny thing about this was at Midway, the testing house was enormous. There was actually like 120 people at the time. And they would actually ebb and flow. Like they'd actually, depending on what was going on, with how many projects are, you know, in the works and stuff like that, or we call them like Black Fridays, where it's like they would get to a certain point and it's like, oh, look, they just finished off this product or this product or this product.
Here comes the layoffs and stuff too. And, like, there was this. There was. You could always tell because there was this. This vibe. Like, there's this dark cloud over everything. And there was always this one guy that walks around behind everybody's desk, and everybody's just kind of like, I'm doing my work. I'm doing my work, doing my work. And you'd feel the tap on the shoulder, and you're like, okay, we gotta go talk. Okay, cool. You know, and stuff. And it's just like, you know, you'd go off to lunch and stuff. You'd come back and then, like, you know, a third of the folks are gone, you know. But it was. There was so many people in testing where it was just. It was just a pretty established process. It didn't really allow for too many opportunities for people to really showcase, you know, really, really truly analytical skills. Because I was pretty good at breaking things down, like, as a whole, where it's like, oh, that was funky. And then I would actually go through the repro steps and be able to document stuff like that, which is, to this day, QA is still one of the most, like, fundamental components towards, like, help me become, like, the designer that I'm today. It's like, there's so many, you know, similarities and crucial skills that you learn in QA if you're doing it right anyways, like that, like, yeah, I'm super appreciative of my time while I was at QA and stuff. But. But yeah, it was, like I said, like, QA midway was. Was very much just kind of like a grind box. You're just like, right. A bit more of a.
Yeah, exactly. When I did get to. When I was working off site, when I was at. When I was at pov, that was more of an opportunity to go, oh, okay, cool. Like, and I would find some stuff, and then I'd reach out to whoever, you know, was. Was part of that thing and say, hey, I found this one thing.
Was this intended, you know, and stuff. And then cruise by and go, how did you do that? I'm like, well, you know, and I'd go through the process and step by step and stuff.
And that was. That helped a lot and stuff, too, so.
Especially because, like I said at the time we were working on. On. Ron Riddle Dumble 2, and there was a lot of mechanical skills that were needed to repro some of the bugs there. So I'm like, oh, yeah. So if you use this character with this skin and you get this type of interaction, this. This bug, and people are like, wait, how did you even do that? You know, I'm like, oh, we. You know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera and stuff. But it was just one of those things where it's like, yeah, like, cool. Like, I had that skill set and, you know, that eye for detail that was. That helped me find all this cool stuff. And, yeah, it was definitely. It definitely helped out.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Right. That's good. Yeah. So that makes sense. So, yeah, like you say, being a bit more close to the developer helped you kind of stretch those analytical skills. And while you were there, you kind of worked on a few different combat games. Yeah. Scorpion King, Spawn.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Yep.
And.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: And after Ready to Rumble, which was a boxing game, so was that. How did that.
How do you sort of find your way into that? I mean, it wasn't the only things you did, but, you know, how did you kind of find your way into an aspect of design that really grabbed you? Was. Was it combat that grabbed you right away, or how did. How did that go?
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Well, combat's always grabbed me because there's. For me, there's something compelling about, like, melee. Like, actual melee combat. It's. It's the. The give and take, the mind games, the spacing. You know, there. There's. There's something different about it. Like, there. There's a very intimate component to it where it's like, I. I'm dealing with space. I'm dealing with something. Somebody in front of me as. As a. As an opponent, versus, like, in FPS. Like, I love FPS. Don't get me wrong. Like, but it's something different. There's, like, this. There's a detached element from, like, I'm, you know, however many meters away, and, like, I'm looking at somebody down this hallway, and I'm like, pew. Okay. Like, he fell down. Yeah, I win, you know, stuff too. There's a very detached component to it.
Whereas like, in. In Melee, there's. There's something about it that, like, that's always really sung for me, and I'm like, I really, really dug this. And it also goes back to the fact that Devil May Cry is probably one of my favorite games of all time, you know, and when I actually got into combat design, like, one of. My first. One of my first gigs was designing the combat system for.
Oh, gosh, what is it? Scorpion King. Like, absolutely no idea what I was doing. Like, it was. I was just like, they're like, oh, yeah, we need to do some combat. I'm like, okay. You know, and they're like, it was just One of those things where I can replicate stuff pretty straightforward as I'm like, okay, here's, here's the system. And like, it's going to use these weapons and like, these are defensive capabilities. And you know, like, there's even like a super meter and all this stuff. Like, I was drawing from as many different sources, you know, as I was as familiar with. And I'm like, this could be cool, this could be cool, this could be cool. And this is before even actually seeing the movie because the movie was in development while we were working on it and stuff. And one of the most random aspects of the first game that I worked on is when we were first talking about it, they were trying to make it quote, unquote realistic.
So they were like, okay, you know, this needs to be more grounded, more like, you know, the realism needs to be an aspect of it. And like, and then they actually, we actually saw the movie and the funny thing about it was I had been pushing. I'm like, well, I want to give some of these reactions, like really big, you know, really big. Oh, so if, like you do this uppercut, like the dude gets, gets launched, you know, if I do this, this push kick, like the dude gets, you know, you could sling him into stuff. And like, they saw that, they're like. And they really pushed back into the like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. It goes a little too far. I'm like, yeah, but it's fun. Like, this is, this is, this is cool stuff and everything.
And then we saw the movie and they were like, yeah, go ahead, good, put that back in. You know, but by then it was also like we, it was a, it was a nine month project. Like, so we were, we were, it was a, that was my introduction to the death marches, you know, where.
And like I was really surprised when we actually took time off to go to see the movie because we were working seven days a week, like no days off for months. Like, literally we. People were sleeping in the office and stuff too. But I was like, oh, I guess this is, this is how it, this is how it is. Okay, cool. You know, and stuff, like, give us some rough times. But.
But yeah, it was just. That was because it was combat, you know, I was. And there was something there that I'm like, I just want to make it the best as possible. And like.
And yeah, it was first attempt. It was hella sloppy and like super janky. Like, we actually, we were, we were utilizing motion capture for the first time as well too. So I was directing motion capture shoots, you know, my.
My first year as a. As a designer and stuff. So that was.
There was. There's so many things going on and stuff too. So it was. It was a thing. It was a process that's learning on the job.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay, so. So combat. Combat has kind of always been a draw to you then. And I guess from POV you went to the Collective.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:31:15] Speaker A: And then continued to do, you know, various different things.
Silent Hill, Homecoming, that was kind of a big thing. Yeah.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Well, so just real quick, when I was at pov, it says four years, but actually at one point was laid off in the middle of that. And that was because kind of similar to that situation that I mentioned with Midway, they just finished a project and hey, guess what? We only have the budget for so many people, blah, blah, blah.
You know, I was just one of those people that. That I got the ax. And there was a lot of politics at the time too, as there.
As there always are in such too. So there was, there was some. Yeah, there were some decisions that were questionable, but. So I was laid off at the time and then I was brought back on to. To do Narc.
And that's when I started to expand my development skills, like, because before when I was working on my previous projects, it was a very limited form of scripting. It was very, like, hands off, like working with a bunch of data tables and like, you know, implementing stuff. But it's very. It was very loose, very detached.
Working on Narc was a very different engine because we're working with a different company, but it would give me an opportunity to not only learn level design and like, scripting systems in a completely different way, but just also scripting as a whole. Like, one of the things that I.
Because Narc was a third person, like, brawler shooter kind of game. And one of the things that I really, really liked was I had the capabilities to turn a third person shooter into a third person brawler shooter into a rail shooter. During one of the sequences, actually took one of the cars, I put it on a specific route and then I attached the player to the top of the car and it gave him a gun with unlimited ammo. And I just put him on this, this rail, you know, this. This rail shooter with all these guys jumping at him and stuff like that too. And like, it was a cool little fun sequence that people were like, wait, what? Like, how is this the thing? You know, I'm like, it's a thing. You know, I just, I put it together. It was it was a side quest kind of thing and stuff too. So it wasn't like, like it wasn't really distracting or like off putting or anything. People were just like, oh, that's kind of cool and stuff too. So it was one of those things where it kind of opened things up for me a little bit more with regards to like possibilities where I'm like, oh, I can actually control all this stuff. Like that's, that's cool. And that's, and that's actually learning. That is what actually got me the in over at the Collective is because they were looking for, for scripters, you know, with combat experience at the time.
And I got brought on for a game called Marque's Getting up, which was a third person brawler with some navigation and like tagging, you know, graffiti and stuff like that. So it was, yeah, like it was cool. Like it was a very different environment. Different, very different feeling.
Different managers as well and stuff too. But it was a cool experience because a lot of people that I got to, to meet and work, there are people that like I worked with off and on throughout the rest of my career, like even to the point like now.
One of the guys that I started working with at the time, this guy named Dave hall, we started on the same day and he's now the, the game director on, on the game that I'm on, you know, and I'm the lead combat designer. So it was just one of those things where it's like, you know, it's like it was again one of those, you know, meant to be kind of things and stuff too, and meeting some really good friends and stuff too. So it was, it was cool. It was a cool experience.
[00:35:15] Speaker A: Got it. That is interesting. So, so you kind of, you unlocked a more technical side to your skill set through pov.
Sounds like you broke the rules within what that game should do, which is great, right? Again, sort of. That seems like a theme.
And so that moves you into a more technical designer role then the scripted designer, which you say is kind of a different aspect of the job, right, Is being more hands on, having more control over what does what and what goes with what and make it function.
[00:35:49] Speaker B: Well, that's the interesting thing though too is because you say technical designer and depending at the company that you're at, people have very different expectations or like definitions for what a designer is and does.
When I was at pov, it was very loose. You're just like, people just do whatever they need to do and get the job done and stuff like that. At Point of or at, at the collective. It very much, it very much was. If you say a designer, they expected you to be a design, technical designer. You're the person that just, just does the implementation. They had a different form of a designer that actually did a lot of like the, the narrative, like the lore, like the, the kind of, the higher level stuff. And we were more of like the, the, you know, the, the meat potatoes of the game itself for the implementation.
And I actually fought against that a lot when I was there because, because I love the technical side of things because it lets you do what you need to do.
But at the time, at the same time, it's very specific.
You know, you're like, oh, look, I'm going to take this task and achieve this task.
It doesn't leave you as much like creative liberty and freedom to do something interesting and unique and stuff too. And I'm like, we could do so much more if we're just given a little bit more leeway and stuff too. And it took a while to the point where Dave and I, as we were working on different projects, they kept trying to like pigeonhole everybody. Like, oh yeah, you're just a technical designer. You're doing this and stuff. We're like, we could do more like, we just, just, you know, and to the point where Dave and I were, we fought for.
There are some people that are creative designers, we call them, you know, and then there's also the technical designers. And Dave was definitely more of a technical side with creative aspirations as well. Like, he had, he had a very specific like, skill set as far as, like the way he handled the, the creative side of things. And I was the flip. Like I was very creative with not as much technical skills, but I was solid. You know, I'm like, oh, cool. Like I could get all this stuff done and I'm just not as, like I didn't have a CS degree or anything like that. And you know, I just take the tools and I figure it out and I work with it and stuff too. So we went back and forth, you know, just tried to, to get this concept across that it's not just technical. There's. Yeah, exactly. There's, there's much more, there's more nuance there. It's tough too. And so it's. Yeah, it was something that, that took a while and, and eventually they started to see the, the, the prospect there. But it was like some of the, some of the higher ups, yeah, they were very determined. I'll just, I'll just say in their point of view.
[00:38:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think that's another fascinating angle of design. Right. Is. Is the creative versus the technical. You know, I think I'm very similar on both. You know, I've done bits, you know, only creative, only technical and, you know, right in the middle.
So, yeah, it's interesting. And not everyone is drawn to that, right? Not everyone's drawn to that More. More technical side. You know, some are. Some only want to do the technical side. So. Yeah, that's interesting. Interesting that the, you know, the differences between those two studios was stark and fortunate that you got the opportunity at POV to find your way into that, you know, that. That different angle that the Collective had.
Okay, so.
So working through the Collective, you know, working on, you know, like you mentioned Mark Echoes and then. And then Silent Hill and I guess still. Still kind of with a combat bent on.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Oh, and DaVinci. You worked on DaVinci Code as well. I remember that game. Yeah.
That's a funny combat bent though.
[00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, it just so happened that the Collective is very much like a combat house. Like they were always about combat as a whole. Like Buffy the Vampire Slayer was one of their big titles that they were known for and such. And you mentioned the DaVinci code because it's hilarious because we worked on Mark Echoes Getting up and right when they were wrapping that, I was doing some early prototyping for another project that they were getting together and it was more of a third person, like, shooter cop story. Like, I can't really say much about it because it never came out, but.
Oh no, I can, because it says Dirty Hair. So there it is. So, yeah, I was working on a lot of prototypes for Dirty Hair, like systems wise and stuff too.
And meanwhile, a bunch of the other folks were working on the DaVinci code because. And to me, it was one of those things, I'm like, wait, what? Like, we're a combat house. We're a combat studio and working on DaVinci Code. And so, yeah, it's like it was very much a puzzle, narrative driven game.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: With combat, you know. And like there was actually some pretty involved sequences where it's like Dave handled a lot of the stuff on that one. And there was a couple sequences where it was like a multi person grapple that was differently timed. It was. So like when I saw the script, I'm like, how did you even do this?
You're a wizard, Dave.
It was crazy. But yeah, we did a combat puzzle game.
Cool. And everything too.
[00:41:13] Speaker A: That's Cool. So a mixture of kind of licensed stuff and, you know, kind of other franchise stuff.
And then so you're there for a couple of years and then an official sort of combat slash system designer role at Crystal Crystal Dynamics and with eidos.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: So how that transitioned was I helped finish off the rest of DaVinci Code. And that's when we got. We got. We jumped into Silent Hill.
That was a insane project in and of itself because we were. We had a directive from Konami where they were like, hey, you know, we want to try a different approach towards Silent Hell. We want to, you know, still maintain, you know, the psychological horror component in like, the Deep Lore narrative and like the. The investigation discovery, you know, the horror, of course, and stuff too.
But we want to try more active combat, you know, a lot more engagement on that side of things. And when we were first starting to do the early stages of that, it was kind of an evolved process because we were throwing stuff out there to say, hey, how about this? How about this? How about this?
There was a lot of red tape. There was a lot of, like, back and forth.
Um, there was some folks that just weren't on board with the decision to the point where once it got to a certain point, there was some key personnel that were actually shifted to different roles. And that's where Dave and myself, like, took over for, you know, to leading the charge for the. The combat side of things. So I actually designed the combat systems for Silent Hill. There was an opportunity to feel like really, like, I'd actually learned a lot more throughout the course of the last several years. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, we got this. And, like, this is also, you know, working hand in hand with Dave. And, like, the rest of the designers were like, hey, can we do this? And stuff. And we got to the point where we set up, like, a really solid core system and then got it propagated out, you know, and then. And again we started working on the designs for the NPCs, and then I did some of the bosses and so on and so forth.
But at the time, Dirty Harry actually wound up getting Sunset, like, and that's when a lot of the crazy shakeups were happening. And, like, you know, keep in mind, this is. This is the early 2000s. This is where the industry was very chaotic and volatile, as someone say.
So people were dropping left and right. Know, some were getting let go, some were actually leaving.
And people kept saying, no, no, no, like, we're solid, we're good, we don't have to worry about anything, you know. And then some people started, you know, silently, you know, disappearing and so on and so forth to the point where I'm like, no, no. Like I, I, I remember that, the layoff that I had at my last company. Like, I, I see the writing of the wall, even if it's not necessarily for me specifically. I'm like, just in case. That's when I started sending out the, the feelers. And that's when Crystal showed up on my radar and stuff. And that was a funny story in and of itself because when they reached out to me, they had aspirations to come up with a next iteration of Tomb Raider that was much more combat oriented. And when I say combat, I'm not just, it's not just the run and gun. They had a, I can't remember exactly which one it was, but it was one of the versions they had released previously, had a lot more dynamic movement. She was like doing a lot more acrobatic moves, you know, some melee. And they're very limited at the time and stuff, like two, but they wanted to expand on that. They're like, this is a really cool opportunity to really, really plus things up. And I'm like, I am totally down.
And really exciting opportunities. Really, really cool.
I get up there super, just excited and stoked to get going. First day on the job, my lead pulls me inside. He goes, oh, yeah, by the way, all that cool, dynamic, crazy, over the top stuff we were planning on doing, yeah, that's all gone.
We just had these focus tests on one of the remakes that they were putting out. There was the, basically a remake of the first game and it was all, all run and gun, all like very like hands off, like, you know, sandback, pew, pew, pew. From range and stuff. And they're like, yeah, that's doing really, really well. So we're going to do that.
And I'm like, wait, what? And so I'm the melee combat designer. You just brought in to do melee combat.
So what am I doing again? You know, so. But what actually wound up happening is I got shifted from combat for Laura as the, the main character into the NPCs. So I was like, okay, cool. Like I get an opportunity to showcase melee for the enemies. I'm like, okay, like that's, that's something, that's something interesting I could, I could futz with because I, I'd done AI designing in the past, but this is completely different. Like, this is a very different style of dynamic navigation because I was working with nav mesh A lot.
It was, it's. It was the. One of the only times I ever got to work with 3D pathing enemies as well, which was super cool to work with, like, bats, birds, different types of sharks and stuff too. So it was like, like it was nuts, like, getting to work with, like, different kinds of volumes and like, turning radiuses and like, you know, it was just. It was super, super cool. So it wound up being this project where, like, I was up in the Bay Area for, for a couple years and working on something completely different with that, that I thought I was gonna be working on, like, as far as my day to day and such. But it was cool. Like, I was expanding on my.
My skill set, you know, and opportunities and meeting different people and so on and so forth.
But at the time, that's when some personal stuff came to the fore where my dad actually ran up running into a bunch of health issues to the point where he was getting admitted to the hospital. And, like, things weren't looking good. And so my mom was by herself and like, there was all this, this, all this bad news, you know, coming up and such. And it was one of those things where I'm like, okay, I could either sit back and, you know, get updates and hope for the best, or I can drop things and, you know, head back down to that area. And that's when I started making some calls. And ultimately I wound up accepting a spot at. Oh, my gosh. It was Bottle Rocket. It was Bottle Rocket. There you go. Yeah. Gosh, it's been a while, but yeah. So I want to get accepting a spot at Bottle Rocket, which is super, super funny because this, this was the. One of the situations where we just missed each other in our career paths because I had applied for and got accepted for a spot on the God of War team.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: That's right. Yes, right that time.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
But after working through, like, not only the numbers, but also, like, you know, the whole intent of me coming back down was to go help, you know, take care of my folks. And yeah, they're down in San Diego, you know, Santa Monica, quite a far. Quite a bit of ways and stuff too.
So I wound up turning, turning down the God of War gig. And one of my. One of my buddies will never let me live that down. He was, he was so mad when he found out, like, you ordered. No, like, he was. So he wouldn't talk to me for like a month and a half.
But then, like I said, I wound up taking the, the Bottle Rocket gig, which, like, it's Interesting, because I did leave the. The. The Tomb Raider project before the end of it, and that there was a few people that took that personally, like, on that team, which was. It's always a bummer when that happens because they actually wound up cutting me from the. The credits.
Yeah. To the point where I'm like, oh, okay, well, all right. Like, you do you, dude, and stuff, too. So I was like, all right, you know. You know, but it was one of those things where it's like, you know, the people that I work with that I get along with was, you know, we still maintain, like, pleasantries and so on and so forth, but it was just one of those things where I'm like, that was. That wasn't.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: That's strange.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: That was unnecessary. Okay. Like, especially considering the. The circumstances. I'm like, you know, but. But yeah, that's when I made the trip down to. To Bot Rocket and. And its share of insanity, as it were.
[00:50:25] Speaker A: Well, yeah, I definitely want to, like, I. I'm conscious. It feels like it's been, like, 15 minutes B.
[00:50:31] Speaker B: But.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: But that, you know, we're. We're. We're getting through it. Since, like, you've got so much great history to dig into, I want to just jump forward just very slightly.
So you bought Bot Rocket. That became Namco, Is that right? Yeah, if I remember you telling me. Yeah. So you were Bot Rocket. They. They ended up becoming Namco, sort of.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: It was. I was at Bottle Rocket. I was working on the Flash.
They were working on a Splatterhouse game at the time.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: But that is. That could be its own episode in and of itself. Dude.
There was some insanity that went on there to the point where Namco actually came down.
In the middle of our workday, we got a call from the execs to say, hey, can we all meet in the center meeting area? And we're like, oh, okay, that's not weird at all. We showed up and Namco was there.
We didn't see. We just saw some people in the background, and they're like, okay, everybody, so Namco's here.
They're here to get all of their computers, and we're all shutting down. Like, we actually. They shut down the studio then and there and such. So that was.
Like I said, it's a very involved situation.
Like I said, I think there's been a few articles that have been written up on it, but it was a thing.
But what wound up happening was several of the core producers had been in conversations with some of the the key folks over here.
And we actually wound up forming like a satellite group of Namco made up of like, I think it was like 25 people that were originally not just from the original Splatterhouse team, but also from the Flash and stuff, just in the studio in general. And we built this satellite group because we were, you know, familiar with the ip, we're familiar with the tools, and so on and so forth. And that's. They brought us on to finish that project. So we were there pretty much until the end of Splatterhouse. And then, you know, there was the option to go move back up to the Bay Area or, you know, bye bye and such too. So most people, you know, most people just said, okay, cool. Like we. We finished what we had to do.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: So, yeah, got it.
Okay. Yeah, Yeah. I remember you telling me some of those stories about that period. You're right. That's definitely its own thing. But moving forward into kind of Double Helix. Yeah, that's where you sort of were really. I mean, combat was your. Your bread and butter again there. A Double Helix. Yeah. Is that right?
[00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I was able to dig into combat a lot when I was at. At Bottle Rocket and Namco and such, but I was shifted around a lot. Like, I was combat primarily on the Flash, but then when I got moved over to Splatterhouse, I was bosses, levels, some combat NPCs like that. Like I said, there was. There's a lot that was going on and stuff too.
But then when I got one of my buddies over at Double Helix reached out to me, like. Like, combat was. Was. Was the jam. Like, I was like, oh, cool. Like, I get to work with the old crew and like. But at the time we were working on a. I don't know if I mentioned, but it's a. It was.
It was a zombie first person shooter with two different campaigns. One from the perspective of Patient Zero and one from the perspective of Boots on the Ground Soldier that's trying to make it through this, you know, hellish scenario and stuff like that. It was super awesome project. Like, I was. It was nuts on that. So now it was.
It was one of the coolest opportunities you had to work on first person melee, which, as you know, is incredibly difficult to do.
But we. We had it working and it was really, really fun.
But yeah, like, I was doing for that one, I was doing melee combat for. For the main character. I was also doing weapons and abilities and so on and so forth. Partway through the project, I got shifted over to multiplayer so it was actually setting up like a competitive multiplayer mode where one side was playing as the zombies, one side was playing as. As the humans. And it was so much. It was so much fun. It was crazy.
But yeah, like, again, like, thankfully, when, when we got back to Double Helix, like, again, like, it's. It's the old crew, so we're very much combat centric in focus, but they were more flexible. Like, the Collector was very much.
We are melee and only melee, you know, and stuff for the most part, with some ranged here and there and stuff. But the. When I got to Double Helix, it was a mixed, like we. Some, some range, some abilities, some melee, different perspectives, you know, different camera work, you know, and so on and so forth. But it's. Yeah, there was. There was a lot. There was a lot going on there.
[00:55:27] Speaker A: Yeah. It's interesting how much your career is kind of focused around maybe a sprite, maybe there's a spine there, right? There's a spine of combat that kind of is a through line, if you like, throughout. You know, it's been interesting hearing you sort of relate different sides of combat, you know, from different viewpoints. Ranged of melee, doing enemies versus player. Right. Like how your career is kind of weave. We've woven its way through the different aspects. We've deep weaved its way through the various aspects of combat. But, you know, obviously you then from Double Helix, you went to some big games there, went to. Went on to Carbine and Sony as combat designer. And then obviously, you know, we work together at Zos, you know, where we were both doing combat, and now, you know, as lead combat designer at Skybound. So how do you reflect on that? Right? How do you reflect on. On that sort of combat focus? Clearly it's a passion. Clearly it's, you know, who you are as a game. I'm guessing, you know, I'm saying. I guess I think I know from spending time chatting to you, but combat is also some, you know, combat games, fighting games, those kind of games are something you play as well. You know, that's not just your profession. It's your. It's your hobby too.
[00:56:42] Speaker B: Well, it's. It's funny too, because even though combat has always been kind of like a through line, throughout my career, thankfully I've worn all of the hats you can wear as a designer.
And it's funny too, because a lot of my lessons that I've learned as a designer, they're transferable to a lot of different components in game design as a whole. Because one of the things that we talked about a lot on our project in the past was celebration moments. It's like how to sell certain things, certain interactions, something that has a really compelling response from the player. Identifying that and then plussing that up, you know, to a point where it's like, like they know this is a cool thing.
Let's make it as cool as possible. Like, or as, you know, as much as, as we can, you know, to fit what we're trying to get. Like experience wise and such too. And going back to the storyteller analogy in the past, like, everything we do is a different aspect, you know, we're telling a different component of an overall story, you know, and stuff too, where it's like, as I've had opportunities to work with all the different disciplines, you know, all the different projects, you know, coming at it from the perspective of AI, coming at it from level design and like overall pacing, you know, because I saw one of your previous podcasts, when you're talking about rhythm, you know, you're talking about music and how that like, oh my gosh, that's like, that's a one to one for actual like level design stuff too. Yeah, yeah.
Taking that and actually applying that across the board. Like, because, because we as designers, we don't want this experience. Like, because that's, that's, that's a really boring kind of like you, you know what to expect kind of things. You want the peaks and valleys, you know, you want like the, the crescendos and like, you want those build ups and you want sometimes pregnant pauses and sometimes the payoffs and stuff. Do you want to surprise players? You know, and a lot of that has come through a lot of really kind of like hard learned lessons. It's like, this could have been better. This could have been a lot better. How could it have been better? You know, and stuff too. And like even now, like looking back at my, the catalog of stuff, I'm like, that was a really bad game, you know, and like, but at the same time it's like, yes, understanding, like now you're in a position where you, you can look back at your old games and kind of realize like, if I were to do something now, like, I would do this, I would change this up. I would, this would be my focus. And like, I would definitely plus this up because that was kind of like the core, like fun aspect of the game in and of itself and stuff too. So it was just one of those things where combat was always like this thing that I could always lean on because that, that's that has been like focus for the longest time, but like weaving in and out of it to learn all the different aspects of game design has just helped, like across the board. It's like, oh, cool. Like I can draw inspiration because of this, you know, and use that in order to drive, you know, an experience that I'm trying to get across.
[01:00:03] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that a lot. And just building off that quickly. Like, how has that changed you as a gamer? Right? How is that? How of those, your professional life in your and your, your hobby, how they intertwined and overlapped or broken apart, you know, how's that gonfy?
[01:00:19] Speaker B: I've gotten a lot better at detaching the game designer brain from my experiences.
But it depends though too, because there are times where I'll play a game and if I start to, if I see the cracks really early, the game designer brain is going to kick in. I'm going to be like, what the, what were they thinking? Like, why would you do that? Like, this makes no sense or something like that. You know, I'll start to pick it apart because it's not just the game designer thing. It's also the, the QA thing, you know, and it's also like, because one thing that I will, I will touch on. I'm gonna mention this in a sec. But there's also the cynical, like, just, just pain in the ass, like, doom and gloomer side of things where it's like, you know, throughout my career, I got to a point where like, everything sucked. I'm like, yeah, I'm seeing this new game and like, I don't know, what were they thinking? Like, it's total trash and so on and so forth. And it was, it's, it was a total just, you know, mentality, like negative, you know, negative douchebag kind of thing where it's like, it doesn't, you know, that doesn't help. It doesn't help anything and stuff too. So. But there's still times where like, I'll see something, I'm like, I don't like it and stuff like that. I'm like, no, no, knock it off. Like some angsty teen or something like that. I'm like, okay.
And a lot of times, especially now, one of my biggest takeaways for anybody that's trying to learn game design is to play a game and just experience it and try to break down like when you're, when you're playing it, just play it and stuff and kind of experience what, what's going on and stuff. Like that too, if you get an opportunity, like, try to get in the designer's head, like, what were they trying to get across? Like, what was their intent with the system? What was the intent with this camera? Like, what is these controls? Like, one of the.
The case in points is, like, when you. When you play Resident Evil, like, they have a very clunky control scheme, but that was intentional. Like, they wanted, like, the same thing with their camera. They wanted to feel claustrophobic. They didn't want you to be, like, super dynamic, you know, like, you know, super over the top kind of action star. Like, no. Like, you're in this middle of this. This hectic scenario where you can only see this much in front of you and some people could just come out of the side and chainsaw you and stuff. So it's just like, you know, there's a lot of intentional designs that go through a process and you weren't there, like, you weren't there to experience, you know, the, the trials and the tribulations. You weren't there to. To understand their process, all the steps they took to get to that point.
But you can extrapolate. You can be like, okay, how did they end up here? You know, and stuff. And then the, the second part of that is always, what would I do as a designer to improve this in stuff, too? And it's nothing more than mental exercises, you know, trying to improve my craft. Like, huh, I could get better at designer to learn the lessons from this and figure out how to avoid similar potholes or traps or what have you and stuff too.
And like I said, you could do the same thing with your own games. You look back and go, yep, yeah, I could have done this. I could have done this better. Yep, like a lot better.
[01:03:34] Speaker A: Okay, what was I thinking, dude?
[01:03:37] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, but you have the hindsight. Here's like, oh, no, I know. What was I thinking? I did this at the time. Yeah, exactly.
[01:03:44] Speaker A: That's what I was thinking, is I did nothing.
I love that, though, because I think you're absolutely right, that once you get inside the system, right, Once you see how games are made, it can be very easy to then look at every other game and go, yes, I could see what you're doing. You know, I could have done that better.
[01:03:59] Speaker B: Right.
[01:04:00] Speaker A: So easy to drift into that cynical side, like you're saying. And I think that the way you're explaining it, there is a really good antidote to that. It's a really good way of kind of tempering that side and going, no, hang on. You Know, what's the. What's the positive way of looking at this? What's the. Seeing the good intent? Right. What was the. What they were trying to do? I love that. That's really smart.
[01:04:17] Speaker B: Well, the. The one.
The one thing that I used to do because I. There was a time where I would actually actively play, like, really bad games.
[01:04:25] Speaker A: I still do.
[01:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
And what I'll do is I'll actually play the game. And a lot of times I'm just like, oh, this is painful and stuff, but I'll try to find the gems. Like, I'll try to find, like, okay, what was cool. What was actually cool about the game? What was a smart and clever design? Because we've been through some pretty bad development cycles where you've, you know, you've been dealt a hand, so you got to make the best of what you can. So there have been situations where I'm like, yeah, we're gonna do whatever the heck we can, and we'll see what happens and stuff too. But there's. You'll see moments of inspiration. You'll see these little glimpses of you. Like, that was cool. Like the rest this, you know, the rapper wasn't. Wasn't. Wasn't as cool like it was. There was some trips and stuff, too, but there's this component there that's really neat, and a lot of times you could find that in almost any game that's out there. Like, regardless of the genre, like, regardless if it's on, like, mobile or, like, you know, you know, VR or whatever. Like, there's. There's always nuggets of just like, that's cool. And for me, like, that's. That's where I look for a lot of different kinds of inspiration. I'm like, I'm gonna take this crazy idea, but I'm gonna apply it to a fighting game, you know, and stuff, and people are gonna be like, what? Like, where did that even come from? You're like, what? It's from this one little, tiny, you know. You know, it's like, inspiration comes from anywhere, dude. Like, you just gotta. Gotta be open to it.
[01:05:51] Speaker A: And you know what that sounds like, pal?
Breaking the rules.
[01:05:55] Speaker B: Exactly.
[01:05:56] Speaker A: No, I think I might be trying to frog that dead horse just a little bit. But it is interesting that that's, you know, there is a. There is a pattern there. And I don't know how you relate to this, because I think we're very similar in our upbringings and, you know, what's drawn us to video games.
I think there's something in that original arcadey kind of era of video games where, you know, in order to get you to put the quarter in or the 50p in, they needed to respond and give you feedback and inspire you and get you excited quickly. And I think there's lessons that I know personally, I feel there's lessons that I learned from those games that I still carry with me today. Right. In terms of feel responsiveness, in terms of systems. Right. And I think when you've got that grounding, which, you know, you certainly have, and it feels like it kind of fed you into the industry in the first place, got you in. In the first and. And given the focus on combat, it feels like there's a lot of overlap there in terms of lessons you learned and things that inspired you in those early days that have continued to feed you, you know, and drive you and motivate you as you. As you move forward. And yeah, I mean, a heck of a career and it's still going. And I love that. I love that. You know, it's been great to kind of dig into it. I have one. One last questions I love to ask.
You mentioned that your folks were kind of not that impressed with your career choice. How do they relate to it now?
[01:07:19] Speaker B: They've actually seen my, like, my interview videos and like, appearances on like, different shows and websites and stuff, and they're like, wow, like, for the longest time my dad kept saying, hey, you know, you could talk to one of your cousins. He's a graphic designer. I'm sure you can get in there. And I'm like, totally different design that like, I. I'm a game designer. He's got not even anywhere near the same thing and stuff too. But it finally it got to a point like, where they just kind of. I don't want to say warmed up to it, but they accepted it. They're just kind of like, okay, I get it. You're. You're.
And it's.
It's hard. Like, it's hard for. For people that are so used to as very specific, you know, opinion or a take on something and you're like, no, I'm. This is what I'm gonna do. Because this is what I love. This is what I'm about and stuff too. And. And actually become reasonable, successful in it and stuff too. It's like, yeah, it. Sometimes it takes a while for people to come around to it.
[01:08:27] Speaker A: So for sure. And then. And there's a father and a husband. You know, how does that. Is that kind of. Is that. How does Your family, write to your career there.
[01:08:36] Speaker B: My son really wants to get more involved.
He'll, he'll come up to the office sometime when I'm actually working or I'm in a meeting and stuff. And he's just like.
And he'll start asking questions like why is that guy doing that with the punching? You know? And I'm like, Dante, one sec.
And then I'll show him like, oh yeah, this is the superhero and this is the bad guy and da da da da da. And stuff too. And I just started the slow process of exposing him to games now. Like he's seen stuff like on like the, the on on the phone. Obviously it's like the beep boop boop and like it's pretty low key stuff. But pretty soon I'm gonna get him like, I'm gonna show him consoles and such too. Like I actually got this little.
It's like a little. It's, it's almost like a, like a Game Boy, but it's got like a, almost like a Mame style engine where it's got a bunch of games on it and stuff too. So I'm. Hey look, check this out. Try this game. And you know, getting used to like pushing the D pad makes your character move and pressing this button does one thing and it's absolutely amazing just seeing him go, oh, okay and then just start doing stuff. And I'm like, that's so cool and everything.
We'll see. We'll see if my daughter gets into it at all.
She's got her own kind of like brand of crazy and stuff too. So.
My wife doesn't really, she doesn't really do much gaming. She used to, to do some mobile stuff and everything like that but you know, she's not really, not really into it as much and everything too, so. But, but yeah, there's no, no friction thankfully and stuff too. So it's just.
It is, it is what it is. Yeah.
[01:10:27] Speaker A: Well, I, I appreciate the time, Val. It's been a great conversation, really interesting career. I do feel like we've kind of whistle stopped through some of it without.
[01:10:36] Speaker B: And then 10 years happened.
[01:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, we could go for another hour I think, but we'll do, we'll do a follow up at some point. But thank you for time. I really appreciate it. It's been great to kind of dig into who you are as a person, who you are as a gamer, you're as a developer and. Yeah, yeah, thanks again.
[01:10:52] Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks for bringing me on. It was awesome talking about this stuff and reliving all the insanity.
Yeah.
[01:10:59] Speaker A: I love that. Thank you.
[01:11:00] Speaker B: Cool, dude.
