Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. Alex Solman here again with Another episode of DevtoDev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. This time here with an exciting conversation with another former friend and colleague.
Joel, would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:00:15] Speaker B: Hi, my name is Joel Marillo and I'm a camera designer.
[00:00:19] Speaker A: Yes, thank you for taking the time. I'm excited to dig into history and dig into you as a person, you as a developer.
Yeah, obviously we worked together in the past. It's good to kind of dig into, you know, the person that I know from, you know, a couple of years of working with you, but, you know, how you got to where you got and where you are where you are. So I always like to open this with my favorite question. What first inspired you about video games?
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Well, first inspired by video games. So I'm probably a little older than the zeitgeist here.
It was just growing up in the. In the Bronx. I wasn't like, my parents were not particularly comfortable with letting us out of the house often.
So a lot of my. My childhood was spent just indoors and reading, you know, reading books, reading comic books and video games is kind of naturally a part of that. And the biggest inspiration for me for video games has always been Final Fantasy 3. 6, depending on where in the discourse you fall. It was just like, that just captured my imagination as a kid where I was just like, there's an entire world in this cartridge. And ever since then, I just kind of been obsessed with, like, recreating that feel. Feeling that I had when I was a kid, just. Just being immersed in that. In that world where, you know, obviously looking at it back now, it's like, how did that happen? But as a kid, it was just blew my mind.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: That's cool. So very much an indoor kid then growing up.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: And so Final Fantasy, it's like you say it's kind of world and its scale.
Was it because you hadn't played games of that scope and scale before and did that kind of capture you or like, what particularly was it about Final Fantasy that grabbed you specifically?
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Just like, the idea that these characters can come to life in this way that no other medium could. Right.
You can read a novel, you can listen to audiobook or watch a movie. And there's just something different about going through.
Feeling like you're almost experiencing these trials with the characters that you just kind of grow to love as you go through the game. And to me as a kid, especially with the games at the time, they just. They just wasn't a thing. Right. Even if you were into. Into RPGs at the time, like they were just very limited in their scope and what they could do. And at least for me, Final Fantasy 3 was like kind of what blew that wide open concept, I should say.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: Right. So that, that sort of immersion, it was the most immersive interactive experience I guess you'd played at that point.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. Yeah, absolutely.
And so, and it's specifically because it was as character driven games could be at the time, but it was the character driven nature of that. They just kind of just completely blew my mind.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Right. So more so than a Zelda or you know, a corresponding RPG at the time, it was the characterization and the immersion of that world. That world sort of coming to life even in its primitive Nintendo 8 bit visuals that coming to life in a way.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Like looking back, obviously a lot of the gas, I just filled it in my head, but it was, it was enough to just kind of trigger my imagination. Made me go run wild.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's all relative, isn't it? Like at that time, that was the most vivid interactive experience you could. You could get.
Okay, cool. So growing up in the Bronx.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Did you have any other family members that were gamers in house?
[00:03:29] Speaker B: In house? Well, my brothers, some of the oldest of three. So like I just kind of, I was kind of the one who like pushed everyone in that direction. So my, my both of my brothers are also gamers and have been their whole entire life. Just because as a result of just how much time we spent with beating our faces against the Ninja Turtle games in the nes that was just impossible to beat. And I still have PTSD about battle toads.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: Savagely hard.
Those blooming bike levels are so tough.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Impossible.
[00:04:00] Speaker A: Okay, so brothers are very much kind of inspiring your brothers to play games. And no doubt gaming together and competing together, I'm guessing was if Final Fantasy was kind of a big game that drew you, were competitive games or sort of couch co op games today drive you as well or was it more the single player stuff that you enjoyed?
[00:04:18] Speaker B: It was mostly the single player stuff. But I do have vivid memories of playing NBA Jam with my brothers and just like just, you know, just bouncing around trying to figure out. We didn't know what the heck we were doing. But it was, it was still fun. It was a good time. Right.
[00:04:29] Speaker A: All right. Okay, cool.
Okay. So growing up sort of NES era is kind of what, what really inspired you. You went to school, I guess, you know, gaming friends at school. And was gaming kind of a Big part of your life.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: It was for.
In general, yes, My, my other friends or my friends were not really as much into gaming as they were into into D and D. But I mean, I guess it qualifies as gaming, but yeah, it was mostly myself, my brothers, we were really big into the Super NES era.
And then, and then it was tabletop gaming with my friends.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Right, okay. So. So physical and digital gaming then was kind of a big, a big deal. Playing SNES but also playing kind of tabletop stuff.
Yeah, got it. Okay.
And so going through school and then, and then going into college. You went to a college in San Diego?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I did, yeah. I went to a platte College, San Diego.
After I got out of the military, I told my wife, I was like, hey, like I have this creative energy in me that I've never been able to harness because a. The military is not the place for that. And growing up, I just didn't really have those opportunities.
And so once I got out of the military, I was like, hey, I have this creative energy and I really want to try to harness it. I want to try to do something with this. So wife and I sat down, we kind of made up with this plan. I was like, you know, I'll give this three years. If I'm not, if I'm not successful being a creative, then I'll just, I'll get a government job, use my veteran press, whatever the case may be.
But yeah, it was, it managed to be successful. I went to school plaque out of San Diego for VFX and compositing. I really wanted to like, my goal was to be a motion designer. I really wanted to like work with the effects and particles and that kind of stuff. But I, I never really got the opportunity to do that. Just like the opportunities just never presented themselves. So I kind of went down the video production route, which eventually ended up me working at Daybreak Games on their media department.
[00:06:25] Speaker A: Right, okay.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: That's interesting. So, so you went to college after you've been in the military and you're in the military for a while? Yeah, like 14 years.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Okay. How did video games sort of overlap with that time in the military? Did they, you know, were they still a part of your life or.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: It's funny because they, they weren't. For the first half of my career, I, I went, I went to, I went to the Navy, left for boot camp in 98 and.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: My, you know, I didn't, I didn't exactly grow up with a lot of money. So like my parents Couldn't afford to buy me like that, like the first era of PS1. So I skipped. I skipped those couple of years and then I joined the military. And your first, your first enlistment is. There's just way too much going on. You have too much to do to be able to gaming. So I basically skipped the entire N64 PS1 era of gaming.
And so by the time I got back into gaming, it was with Final Fantasy 10, oddly enough.
So I got back into gaming when Final Fantasy 10 came out in like right in the mid PS2 era. I believe that's correct.
So yeah. So.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: The short answer, your question is for the first half of a military career, I was completely detached from gaming. And in the second half when I slowly kind of got back in with Final Fantasy 10.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: Right, yeah. That means you missed Final Fantasy 7 then, at least first time around.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: But I did. Yeah. Yeah, I played it. I've played it since. But yeah, yeah, but no, yeah, it was, it was just weird to be thinking about it now. It's just weird to be. To have been that detached from gaming. Like, you know, people talk about like, oh, golden eye parties. Like I completely missed that. Like, I just. I just didn't have the opportunity to do any of that.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: But it must have been a massive leap though when you went from, I guess, sort of Super Nintendo era was, you know, maybe when you sort of stopped gaming and then now you're playing Final Fantasy 10 on PS2. Like that's a heck of a leap.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: I basically went from like the most crude pixels brights to like in 3D. Like, oh my God, this is amazing.
I was one of the people that was like, graphics can't get any better than the PS2.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And so, so I guess sort of the confluence then of having more time than you had at the start of your sort of military career and you know, a big Final Fantasy game dropping, which you know was kind of a beloved franchise for you, was what pulled you back. Pulled you back in.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much. It was.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: I would actually say it's that the ability to have a TV in my place first. My first year of the military, I lived on board the ship, so I couldn't.
There's no such thing as a personal space. So being able to, you know, move up the ranks and have the ability to move out of the ship and, and have my own space and set up my tv, it's like, okay, now what do I do with my time? And that's kind of what I, I made the move back to Gaming.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. Okay. So. So. So you're in the Navy for a while, and you come out of the Navy with this creative bug.
What. What do you. What do you think triggered that?
[00:09:17] Speaker B: It was just.
I don't know that anything triggered other than. I've always had that creative energy, just never had the ability to put it towards focusing into something professional, I guess I should say.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: Right. And so were there other things sort of prior to that where you. You'd sort of been flexing that creative muscle at school or, you know, in your personal time?
[00:09:38] Speaker B: I was always.
I guess the closest thing I was able to do was just like, I had written my own, like, D and D settings. So, like, I would put that energy into, like, just writing. It was all terrible, but it was just one of the few things that I felt like I could do with that energy because it was just not that the. The ability to. Or the opportunity to do that often.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Right, that makes sense. And I guess if you were playing tabletop games as well, was there maybe some miniature painting or something in there as well or.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Not at the time. I didn't start miniature painting till after I got out of the military, which I eventually did.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: But yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess, yeah, it became another outlet for that creative energy. Okay, so you've kind of always felt like you've had that creative spark in you and maybe not had enough opportunities to express it. And then what was it about visual effects? And, you know, that the kind of felt like the way you want to express that creativity.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: So one of the things that I really liked about the program that I was in at school is it was like, the first year, you kind of got, like, intro levels to intro classes, to a bunch of different disciplines. And once I, like the first time I opened up after Effects, and I was kind of started messing around with moving things around, and I dropped in a plugin for Particle Effects, and I was just like, okay, wait, what? You can do this much with this much just starting from this little point of. From this little emitter. And I was just like. I was like, okay, I need to be able to explore this. And I just kind of went ham on it.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Right, interesting. So I guess that felt like a way that you could express that creativity tangibly. Right. And presumably you had a lot of flexibility and how you expressed it in that way.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Yeah, it was the idea of being able to take.
I would just use a particle emitter, because the first thing I just take a particle emitter and I can manipulate it in such a way that like I can make this whole unique thing from just this one starting point.
And so the idea of like being able to do express my creativity that way and then I hopefully being able to apply that to a professional career, which is really enticing and I just kind of. That's kind of made me just start running in that direction.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Right, okay, interesting. And you said that, you know, that you didn't maybe get the opportunity to do that professionally in the way that you wanted to, but video production also kind of became something you were attracted to.
Was that just another module or was that something that you kind of felt a similar vibe in? Like, how did that happen?
[00:11:58] Speaker B: So yeah, living in San Diego, there isn't a huge VFX industry out there. Or at least there wasn't at the time. I'm not sure what it's now. So like trying to pursue that in San Diego just didn't really lead to a whole lot.
However, there were a lot of opportunities for video production which. And I'm not one to just pass up on things to come up. So like every time the opportunity came up, I would take advantage of it. You know, I've done everything from like local commercials to. To, you know, food photography, you know, whatever the case may be. Like, I just like, if the opportunity present itself, I would take advantage of it. And I kind of just eventually found myself constantly just being referred to or being asked by other people like, hey, we worked together. You were great, let's do another, let's do another, another shoot. And eventually I was just like, okay, I'm just doing this on a regular basis. I guess. I'm not a video production guy.
[00:12:48] Speaker A: Right. I guess that, that led to some of your kind of wedd photography stuff you did and, and motion designer as well. Some work that you did around that. Around that time.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I worked at a company called Passive Productions while doing some freelance video. Video.
Freelance videography.
And there I got a chance to do a little bit of motion design. But it was still primarily video production. We did everything from like I said, like local mall spots to like training videos. I mean it was.
It was a breadth of stuff. Not all of it was super exciting. I don't ever want to spend seven weeks editing shipping containers safety training videos again. But you know, it paid the bills.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Very diverse suite of things and subject matters. Right.
What. I'm going to ask a dumb question, but what is motion design? Can you explain what that. What is.
[00:13:40] Speaker B: So motion design is the. It's. I like to say that it's it's graphic design with keyframes. Right. It's. It's title treatments is the ability to, like, have, you know, like your words on screen and, and have everything look cohesive. It's being able to take someone's graphic design. Usually you want to take someone. Be able to take someone's graphic, static graphic design and then add motion to that in order to make it that tiny bit more appealing.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. Interesting. Right? That sounds like a fascinating.
And again, a very varied role.
Okay, so you're doing that kind of freelance, doing some photography for a while.
And then you mentioned sort of Daybreak comes up around sort of 2016. Like, what. How did that happen? How did you find that role? How did you learn that role?
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Yeah, so the school that I'm Black college, they had a big, like, alumni thing once a year.
And I, I would attend those obviously when I was in school and then afterwards. And one time I, when I went in there and this gentleman by the name of Andrea Padilla, he was working at what was Sony Online Entertainment at the time. And him and I had kind of gotten to know each other and he was, I kind of saw him as a little bit of, as a, as a mentor because he helped me a lot through school. Kind of just kind of skin. An understanding of just, just creative industries in general. And one time he just, he. We were both talking, he was like, hey, I've seen a lot of your work.
[00:15:01] Speaker B: And we have an opportunity coming up on our, on our team.
And then we just kind of chatting and about, I don't know, probably six months later after that, he was able to bring me on board. And then that was kind of my entry into the industry.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. Okay. Yeah, so you sort of made the connection before the role was even available. And then you had the right skill set to be straight consider for it.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Straight away, a little bit of luck and a little bit of timing and. Yeah, kind of made it work.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It's great.
And so, so you went in as kind of multimedia producer. Like, what was the, what was the focus there?
[00:15:32] Speaker B: So the focus there was to support all the games that SOE Slash Daybreak was doing at the time. So it's, it's creating all the content for.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Marketing. So they would come to us and say, we need, we're running this marketing campaign, we need this many gifts, we need this many videos, we need this many screenshots. And then we would just create all that content, package it out, send it to them, and then they would do whatever their social media marketing plans dictated.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Right. Okay. So a combination of screen grabs, trailers, video capture, I presume.
Okay, interesting. So kind of a selection sounds sort of similar to what you've been doing, I guess, sort of capturing content and sharing it, providing it in a format that will benefit the groups that were going to use it.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
It was everything from like here's this super cool trailer down to just like winnie 4 second rotating gif of this new weapon coming out. It was just kind of the entire breadth of marketing needs.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Right, so you were doing full on video editing then as well? Well, I'm guessing.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: At Daybreak we did this thing that I really enjoyed where like there was four of us and then for each project there would be, you know, we would rotate through, there would be the lead editor and then every then the other three people would support that person. So it would be like. And normally when you're editing we, you know, the context switch can be difficult. So like the other person, the other three people would do the capture so that you could just be feeding, constantly feeding video into your edit until you get the perfect sequence of shots. And so at that, on that role I got the chance to not only just create the edit and put everything together, but also be like a virtual director. Like I need you three to run over there and do this. You. Okay, start shooting now. Trigger the enemy. This other stuff. So yeah, depending on, depending on which project we were assigned to, I got a chance to do a bunch of different stuff of that nature.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: That's cool, right? Yeah. So actually in the making of those shows, it's not like you're necessarily sitting there with a controller in your hand capturing the footage. You're, you've got, got a group of people that are providing you the footage you need or variants of the footage you need in order to assemble the edit.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, those, those trailers especially anything that requires actual gameplay capture requires way more time and energy than most people realize. Especially because we, at least at Daybreak we had people who like their job was to just scroll through our trailers frame by frame and if they would find one, one hitch frame, they're like now redo the whole shot. So it could.
A 2 meta trailer could easily take us four weeks.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Having sat up late at night many times trying to capture footage for a trailer that's due tomorrow. Yes, I know exactly what you mean. They can, they can be very. Because you got to get that perfect sequence. And especially in multiplayer games, right. In single player games it's a little bit easier because you are, you can sit there with the controller or, you know, you can set, you can set everything up and then capture it. But in multiplayer you've got like you say, kind of direct and coordinate folks to get the perfect shot.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And in single player games, especially if you have access to the backend. Right. You can still do sequencer stuff. You can get your shots perfectly and they just maybe kind of redo it because stuff is there. But like in multiplayer games, a, those tool sets generally don't have any sort of capture suite and so much can go wrong. You can run it perfectly 30 times and still find missing frames or things that are hedged up. It's. Yeah, it's a pain for sure.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Trying to get the coordination of a networked game to perfectly capture and then you've got to capture everybody's view and you've got a cut between them and like.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: It's a huge amount of work and super fun though. I always found those, those, those trailers very satisfying to kind of assemble and put together if they were hard work.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Once they come together, it's like the culmination of all the hard work. When you see it all kind of play through, it's like, oh, this looks great, but it's getting to that point can sometimes be a little table flippy.
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Yes, for sure.
Okay, so, so you're so doing that role for about two years or so.
Was that the primary focus for those two years or did the role shift?
[00:19:31] Speaker B: That was the primary focus for those two years, yeah.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: Okay. And then, so you were also kind of freelancing still at the same time? Yeah. Okay.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially for that first year I was at daybreak, I just, I had so many contracts already signed that I was like, I, I can't, I can't back out of these. So I would just kind of work something out where, you know, I was just, I would do my freelance on the weekends and then I would do all the editing during the week at night. It was, it was a rough couple, couple, couple months, but made it work eventually.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Okay. Right, yeah. So you have to kind of juggle both sides of your, your career at that point, I guess. Wrapping. Yeah. Focusing on the contracts you already had and being a full time employee at the same time.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: It wasn't easy, but you know, made it work.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. That's tough.
Okay. And so, so from there, so, so you're in San Diego, you know, you're kind of working at Daybreak and then you make the shift over to Zenimax Online Studios is also over in Maryland. So how did that go?
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah, it got laid off from Daybreak when they kind of imploded.
And then Ben Jones, who I worked with there at the time, he called me up and he was like, hey, we have a need for your skillset.
Are you willing to come out here and work?
So wife and I sat down and we talked for a while and we just kind of figured out. I was like, hey, why not give it a shot, right? Like, just being in the military, we've been used to moving. So, like, it wasn't that big of a deal. Well, I don't want to say it wasn't. I mean, it's. We moved literally from one corner of the country to the other, but we sat down, we figured out, it was like, hey, this is an opportunity when I try. Let's see. Let's see how this goes. So we just packed up our stuff and a month later, we moved from San Diego, California to Baltimore.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Right. Literally from coast to coast.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. From corner to corner, too. Right. From the.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: That's interesting. Yes, A good sort of. We touched a little bit on this, you know, in what will be a future episode with Bill, about, you know, the. The personal impact of. Of the job shifting, you know, location and how that impacts family and, you know, how you juggle that. And it sounds like, you know, you and the wife, you know, had a very let's do it kind of approach, which, you know, is great. I mean, having done something similar, you know, it's amazing to be in that position, to have that freedom to go, try, try that out.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not having kids kind of helps with that considerably. So if anyone with a family is like, I'm not uprooting my family, I completely understand for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Okay. So you make the move, you know, corner to corner over to Maryland and. And you join as a multimedia specialist. So was it a similar. Similar kind of role initially?
[00:22:11] Speaker B: It was almost the exact same role. It was doing the exact same thing. It was just a matter of, like, learning the new engine, understanding the tone of the working or creating content for. For Elder Scrolls Online.
So, yeah, it was. It was literally the exact same role.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: Right, okay. Right. So an easy, easy transition professionally, even if I'm sure, a challenging one personally, to move and sort of settle in a new area.
And so you did that for just over a year. Just over a year or so.
And then you make the shift into camera design, so.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: Development of the actual game rather than capturing and producing content around the game. So how did that come about?
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Yeah, so I remember seeing a post for the new game, the Blackbird, that zenimax was working on, and I remember seeing a job posting for a camera designer. And I spoke with Dave Metalson, who was the lead gameplay designer at the time, and I asked him, I was like, what is this? Like, what does the camera designer do? And we sat down over lunch and he just kind of explained it. And I was like, I feel like I have enough relevant experience where I can maybe give that a shot. And he was like, well, do you want to try it? And I was like. I mean, I was like, I. I think that I can do. I think I have enough knowledge that I can kind of get this started. And if you want to hire a senior camera designer to come in. And then after that, after that, it kind of helped me just sort this all out.
I think this will be great, right? Because another thing that they were looking for was someone to kind of help, like, kind of. What's the right word? Like, educate part of the team on, like, what does a cinematic camera look like? As well as, like, what a cinematic lighting look like? And I was so. I was like, hey, I can come in. I can provide that education. I'm familiar with being on film sets. I know how to light, how to use cameras.
And so conversations kind of went back and forth. A couple. A couple times they gave me a test to, to see if I can. If I was just. It wasn't just full of hot air.
And so took the test, gave it, and then eventually they were like, okay, cool, we will bring you onto the team. We can. You can get. Get all the camera design stuff started and we'll hire. Then we'll hire a senior camera designer to, to kind of train you into this new role. Spoiler alert. It never happened.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Yes.
Lots of promise. But, I mean, I'm not surprised you asked that question, like, what is a camera designer? Because I think it is a unique role that not every stud would even consider having. I mean, coming from, you know, some of the studios I've worked at, it was a huge part of, you know, a certain generation, right? The PS3 era, where we'd have, you know, kind of more fixed camera games and, you know, we needed someone to really think about that part of it. But in the sort of more modern, full, full 3D, full freedom of camera gameplay, it's less common. So I'm fascinated how, having heard what the role was, and I think. I think I know the Answer. But I'm kind of curious to hear it from you. Like, what about your skill set made you feel like I could do that job really well?
[00:25:22] Speaker B: I have a.
How do I say this without sounding conceited?
I feel like I have a very good understanding of like what looks good in a frame.
And I also think of myself as a pretty decent video editor. So like, I felt like I can present a game. I could present games in a way that like maybe game does usually don't think about. Right. I'm very much focused on like that window to into the world. Right. Like we are creating it, this functional, beautiful 3D space. But at the end of the day, players interacting with that through a, through a flat 2D window. And I felt like I could use my knowledge of cinematography and to help kind of push that forward a little bit. And once I saw the requirements and kind of what they were looking for, I was like, I have some gaps in my knowledge, but I feel like I can do this with a little bit of help.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean that makes complete sense to me. Especially, you know, even before looking at your history. Like the way you would speak about camera and framing, you know, is definitely, you know, is the kind of knowledge that helps to an area that is often forgotten. Right. I think when you look at a lot of games, especially third person games, right.
How the game is being framed is not thought about that much. It's like, yeah, no, it's. You've got a right stick and you move the camera around like what? Like what are you gonna do? It's like, well, actually there's a lot you can do.
[00:26:44] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm of the mind. Like my favorite saying is the best camera is the one that you can customize and the ones that the player doesn't notice. And I feel like when you do a good job, the player will never notice. When you do good camera design, the player will never notice. But if your camera design is terrible, holy crap, will they know? And I am like, I'm just very passionate about making sure that like. Which is kind of weird thing to say. I'm very passionate that my work is never noticed because I know I did a good job.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Yeah, very similar to audio folks and you know, like the best soundtracks are the ones that you don't notice, you know, because they're just so impactful. They're so part of the texture of the thing. Yeah, I completely agree. It's almost like a thankless, thankless task.
And I'm sure when, you know, when you look over the motion design, the, A lot of the gameplay capture stuff. Right. Like so much of gameplay capture is about framing the game in an interesting way. Yes, often in a way that the player would never be able to play the game from, but frequently it is right. Frequently you're trying to capture those moments. So yeah, I can completely see combined with your photography experience, I mean it makes complete sense that you'd have a good grasp of the camera whether it be a digital one or a real one.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's at least that's kind of the way I boost my way into it. So.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: But what about the test though? So, so they handed you a test like how did that feel and how did approach that?
[00:28:02] Speaker B: The. So the test it was like I want to say something like eight or nine like open ended questions where they asked general game dev stuff and yeah, I just, I was just honest. I was just like here's what I believe, here's, here's my reasoning both professionally as a, as a video production person. Here's what I would do, here's why, here's why I would do it as a gamer, as a consumer.
And then I just, I was just honest and I was blatantly honest on my one, my gaps in my skill set I felt like were right.
I had worked with game engines in the past, you know, both at Daybreak and when I first got to Zenimax, so I was familiar with that. But like there was a lot of like the really in depth technical dev stuff that I was familiar with and I just kind of just laid it all there and apparently was good enough.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah, clearly. I mean, I mean I think, I think you were an excellent fit for what is a very unusual role. Right to like we said, to hire for and to find the right person for.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: And I think that almost worked in my favor because.
[00:29:11] Speaker B: We spent years looking for a senior camera designer. It was just such a role that I don't know, maybe they were just looking for the perfect unicorn or there's just not enough people that were qualified for what they were looking for. That it was just like every time we had some kind of interview there was like well this person isn't quite the right fit.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: Which is a whole nother thing we could get into that I have problems with. But anyways.
Yeah, but the niche ness of the role kind of worked in my favor because we could just never find that right person. And so I eventually just kind of had to self taught my, you know, I had to self taught into the role in order to make it kind of, kind of fit because it was just very difficult to find someone with the relevant experience.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: And, and I mean, on paper it feels like you came in with the right sort of camera side, professional experience, but maybe not the right game dev experience, like you said. Right. You'd had some experience with engines, presumably you'd use source control of some description. Over time you'd work. Presumably you'd integrated into other departments. Right. And kind of worked with them at daybreak and you know, in those early days of sauce. So you had familiarity with how games were made?
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, just kind of just from just general exposure to all the stuff in backhand. So I had the, the, all the video production and the framing and the camera experience, but I didn't have like that technical kind of know how in order to, to get in there any deeper than I needed to for, for capture.
[00:30:44] Speaker A: Got it. And then not only that, but you also joined a project that was very nascent in its technology and therefore it must have been very hard to kind of find your way through not only the role, but also how to actually do the role in practice. Right. How to do the camera work. Right. When you didn't have tools yet or you didn't have, you know, sometimes barely had a game at many points.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, when I, I joined, when we were in like pre, pre, pre, pre alpha. Right. It was before we'd even have. Have anything really stood up. So there was a lot of like just a. Just getting all my knowledge on paper so that was easily accessible for the rest of the team, for the people who use it. And then it was just kind of like trying to learn how to be a game dev on a, on a very, very early engine. It was like the scaffolding was just really raggedy and I'm standing here kind of trying to figure it all out.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: It wasn't the easiest thing I've done professionally, but, you know, eventually.
Did you still record and how did.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: You, how did you navigate that?
[00:31:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: That's a very difficult challenge to walk into an unfamiliar role, you know, in an unfamiliar environment. Even though the studio was familiar, the project was unfamiliar and try and define that very niche and very unusual role. Like how, how did you navigate that?
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Poorly? No, no, honestly, it was just kind of a day, take it day by day kind of thing. It's just I was literally figuring out as it went and it was just a matter of just, you know, being a little bit fearless and just kind of not being afraid to fail because it was Inevitable. And just looking back on, I don't know that I have any sort of concrete answer other than just. I just figured it out as I.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: Went and do you think there was anything in your, your career up to that point or your life up to that point that kind of prepares you for that or helped you navigate that?
[00:32:40] Speaker B: How do I say this without sounding cheesy as hell?
It's just that like a growing up in a.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: In a challenging environment followed by just being in the military where it's just, you just kind of have to figure things out. There's no such thing as, no, as saying no to something.
So just, just a matter of resilience really. That's really, that's, it's kind of really be it.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And it makes sense that the military training you had, you know, and that kind of approach has stayed with you where it's kind of galvanized you in a way that's been beneficial throughout your career.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
Especially in the Navy as a, like there was just.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: When you're in the, when you're in the, in the Navy, there's no, and you're out to sea, there's no one you can rely on other than the people immediately around you. And like in relying on all that, you're in the middle of the ocean in a ship with 150, 200 other people. Like, you just kind of have to figure things out. There's no other option. And.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: That'S just. This has kind of been ingrained in me and I just kind of just, that's just kind of how I go through life.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess there is some, I mean, nowhere near the skate, the stakes. Right. But there is some parallels there in game Dev, modern game Dev, and you know, that reliance on those around you and that sort of dependent on, you know, you can't do everything yourself. You need other people who are experts in their role to, you know, to.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Pull together to be effective 100% and not only rely on the people that around you, but trust them. That they trust them, that they are doing everything that they can to the best of their ability with the best of intention and like just kind of understanding that and coming together, figuring and, and realizing that like to some degree, everyone in game Dev is trying to figure it out. Everybody in Game Dev is kind of learning as they go. And that was, that was kind of an eye to open moment for me to be like, okay, cool, I can do this. So let's, let's just kind of see what we can do and just roll with it.
[00:34:35] Speaker A: That's such an important point. I think that trust element is so crucial to any team based endeavor. Right.
And certainly true in the military, where that really matters, versus game dev, where, yeah, we're just making games. Right. It's not, not really that important relatively, but that being able to trust and assume good intent and you know, and know that the person next to you is an expert in their own field. And if you're not seeing eye to eye, it's not because they're trying to do you over, it's because there's some miscommunication or misalignment like that. That, that is a great point that I think not every studio I've worked at has necessarily been able to, you know, get there. And I think, I think I feel like Zos was one of the best places for that in general.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so, so you join as a camera designer on a new project with a new engine and you're trying to figure out how you do your job.
[00:35:29] Speaker A: And you're doing that for about three years and then you progress to senior.
Talk to me about that. You know that journey. Right. How did you, you know, did you feel genuine progression in your understanding of that role? And, and where did you feel sort of success and challenge in being that camera designer on that project?
[00:35:51] Speaker B: That's interesting. Okay, so I would say the first half of that I was like kind of just stumbling my way through and just kind of trying to figure it out.
Eventually got to the point where I was like, okay, if no one's going to define this role for me, I'm going to do it. So then I just kind of started moving in that direction and I felt like that's when I started getting a little more confidence.
Eventually we hired this gentleman, Stas Bondarenko, who was our technical camera designer. So he, he was really an engineer. But.
[00:36:24] Speaker B: Yeah, and then him and I kind of, we got together and then we started like kind of making our own fate, essentially.
[00:36:33] Speaker B: Because once I once, once I kind of understood that, like, nobody knows what I do or why I'm doing it. That's when I was like, okay, we're, we're gonna do then what we think is the best for the project, for the experience we want to provide.
And then it was just kind of met over, kind of just trucking along. There was a lot of.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Failing quickly, I should say failing quickly, figuring out what works, what doesn't.
[00:36:58] Speaker B: Why there are certain camera conventions that exist and can we break those? There's a lot of experimenting and, okay, this exists.
Are we doing this because it's the way we've always done it, or are we doing this because there's a reason? More often than that, there was a reason, but we definitely found places where we could experiment, we could push the boundaries.
And it was just that. It was just that. I feel like a transition from camera designer to senior was just me understanding that I needed to kind of force that my own path and just push that without the.
Without the fear of failing and just doing what we think was best.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I feel like Stars was so technical, you know, and the technical challenge of what you were doing was it was very high.
It feels like that that was a good pairing, right. To sort of give you that grounding of like, oh, somebody's got my back. Technically, that means maybe I can be a bit more creative and, you know, sort of drive things in a more creative direction. Not have to worry so much about how I'm going to do it. I can focus more on what it's going to do.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Yeah, that was always a huge point of contention for. I feel like it was probably more for myself than for other people. It was just like between the state of the tech, my own lack of deep technical knowledge, I always felt like I was hamstrung. Like I could never quite execute my vision.
I had all these grand ideas of the stuff I wanted to do, and it was just. It was always just outside of reach. Right. It was like I was reaching through it, through a barbed fence, and I just couldn't quite get to where I wanted to.
So having that technical support was really helpful. And we would. We had, especially at the last, like, year or so, we were really making strides to what my full vision was, which unfortunately never got to execute it, but we were kind of making progress towards that.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think the way that you expressed that vision for how the game was going to look, right. Look. You know, to use look, it sounds sort of almost too simple to say look, but you know how it was going to be framed, Right. I think was. Was a big part of, certainly for me, seeing you sort of stretch your legs, right, and grow into that, like you say, defining that role like, this is why I'm here and this is how I can make a difference.
And that's hard, right? That's hard to kind of get to that point, but have. And then to have the confidence to follow through on it.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah, the confidence there is kind of, kind of the key Word. Right. It's conversations with people like yourself and some of the other leads on our team just being like, you know, go ahead. Like, we're giving you the. We're giving. We're trusting you that you're making the right calls, or at least we're trusting your judgment to do what's best for the project within your realm of expertise. And kind of just me saying, okay, cool, let's run with it. Let's do this.
Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission. Let's just freaking throw everything at the wall, see what sticks.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think it was the right attitude for where we were on the project and the opportunity that we had, you know, didn't pan out, but the opportunity that we had at the time was to do something special. So I wanted to dig in a little bit into.
There was a point where I think, I hope you don't mind me sharing this, but there was a point where we had this sort of epiphany where you and I think you mentioned this desire to focus a bit more on game feel.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: And we had a lot of conversations about that, you know, about what is game feel. And obviously camera is a key part of game feel. You know, in my opinion, it's a key part of the language of game feel, defines the way the game feels.
And that I was. Was inspired by your kind of excitement about that. Like, talk to me about, like, where did that come from and why. Why was that something that you sort of drawn to?
[00:40:43] Speaker B: So I am.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: For me personally as a gamer, I'm very. I'm very sensitive to, like, the way a game like, feels, right? Like this, this idea that God of war, the new God of war games feel very much different than say, like, I don't.
The Tony Hawk Gator game, right? Like, they just feel inherently different from the way the character moves, the animations, the. The speed, the ramp up, the way the cameras frame all this stuff.
And like, I'm just very. I'm very passionate about, like, translating tone and theme into an actual feel of how it feels to control the character. And the more camera design I did, the more I kind of understood, like, this is a three prong, this is a triangle, right? Like, you need all three parts of that triangle, which is why we call it three Cs to make it work.
It's like trying to create this perfect video but ignoring audio. So, like, to me, like, the more I got into camera design, the more like, just the overall game feel.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: Understand the game feel just became far More important. So I was.
Especially towards the end of the project, I was kind of making that push to be like, okay, I have a solid understanding of camera. How do we. How do I also then, like, make everything else feel good and. Or not good because.
Feel correct for the game that we're making?
And so I kind of just started making that push in that direction because I just, like I said, I'm just really passionate about making the film, the game, feel correct.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I love that framing. I completely agree. Right. The tone of the game that, you know, sort of what the game is trying to say needs to come through the way it feels. It can't just come through the visuals or the music or the graphics. Right. It's got to come. It's got to be. And the best games, you know, overlap that mechanical feel with the sort of emotional feel, if you like. Right. They're in harmony.
[00:42:43] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a concert. Right. It's all these things coming together to give the experience that you want. Right. If, again, if you use God of War, if God of War played and had the framing and the control in the feel of Ratchet and Clank, it wouldn't work. Right.
[00:43:00] Speaker B: Those two experiences are diametrically opposed. And the big reason for that, it's not just because Ratchet and Clank is cartoony and has cartoony shaders. It's because it's created to look and feel like a certain way that wouldn't fit God of War. And I am just. I'm fascinated by that. And I kind of love being able to put my work towards that experience.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, camera framing is one, obviously, but also, like, weight of character, you know, how they accelerate, decelerate, what, the height of their jump, where they jump, whether they can double jump. Right. All those things, you know, wrap into, like, you're saying, the tone and the feel of the game. And I think it's fascinating to me that that desire that you had to make the game frame be framed that way sort of led you into that road of like, oh, this is way bigger than just the frame. It's. It's the whole way the game controls the mechanics of the game that sort of define the feel.
Yeah.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: I feel like if. If I had started in the opposite end, we're more focusing on the feel and animation. Like, I would have eventually ended up in the same spot because it's like. It's like that. That realization, like, it's all.
It's everything that you need to kind of be at least aware of in Order to make, to deliver on that experience.
[00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah. Have a good grounding in the key elements of all of those pieces because then you can better pinpoint when one of them's out of sync or out of context or not landing, you know, and you don't necessarily have to be the person that does it, but you can speak to, hey, I'm not feeling this because that animation is too slow or that sound effects too late or, or my camera isn't. Right. I think.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting that out of sync is very important that you mentioned because it's kind of understanding that it is kind of a push and pull. I can't just say this is the camera framing and this is what our game's gonna look like if a character doesn't move at a speed that supports that camera. This is just gonna feel awkward and janky. Right. But like, do we crank up the speed or do we bring up or bring in the camera? Right. And it's just kind of like that back and forth until you settle on what the perfect experience is.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: Agreed. Yeah. Especially, you know, like we've mentioned in a third person action game with, you know, with weapons, for example, right. Like you are constrained on when and how you can play with the camera. Doesn't mean you can't, doesn't mean you can't find windows where you can land that tone, but there are certain times where you just can't because the player needs to focus on what they're shooting at or, you know, what they're avoiding. All right? And so like you're saying it's that constant push, pull that, you know, that compromise, but also having a strong idea of what you want, that's important.
[00:45:34] Speaker B: Absolutely. That I think you just touched on. It was probably the single biggest challenge of being a gameplay camera designer is where like, as someone who comes in production world, I'm always like, I want to take control of the camera. I want to give you the framing that you. That I want you to end up so that I can. You can experience what I want you to feel.
But it doesn't work that way, especially in gameplay. Right. Like the.
As designers, we have to kind of take a step back and understand that the camera is a tool for the player first. And then, and then we can add layers of emotional context on top of that, but we can't take control of the camera. In a 3D. In a third person action game where you're shooting, you can't move the player's reticle, you can't just swing their camera over to one side and then it's, you know, they're getting killed or they're getting, you know, if, if you have high paced action combat, right, like you, you don't want a camera super tight frame in because then they'll get killed off by frames. Shots coming off frame that like it'll just feel cheap. Right.
So it's about creating, creating emotional content with a very constrained boundaries and then just trying to make that work.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. I think we had lots of fascinating conversations about hey, in this area where we, we don't want it, we want to encourage the player to feel like this or look like that. We can get away with playing with the camera here because we don't want them to be firing their weapon. They don't need to be. Right. If they do, they'll override it. But you know, whereas here it's a combat space. We better not mess with the camera here for fear of the ire of the player. Like.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: Yeah, and then just finding ways to be creative within those bounds, it's kind of the key. But yeah, at the end of the day it's still a functional tool. It needs to not be frustrating. And then, then for us as designers is to come in and say, okay, well what can we do? How can we enhance this moment and then just present it to the player?
[00:47:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess for someone like you with a lot of experience in using the camera in non interactive media, right. In trailers, in motion design, in, you know, etc.
[00:47:36] Speaker A: Coming into a interactive experience gives you this grounding of what it could be and, and this ability to kind of compromise. Someone like me who's grown up, you know, working with cameras but has no professional grounding other than pure osmosis right. On how a camera should work. I always really enjoyed that back and forth of like oh, you've got the lingo and maybe I've got technical understanding, right. The gameplay understanding. And so together we can kind of make a really interesting. And I think what I like about your role and what you did is as we said earlier, people don't think about the camera enough. They don't think about ways that the camera can add to the experience. And it is a key part of experience, it's a key part of feel.
[00:48:22] Speaker A: So yeah, I kind of always enjoyed that professional grounding that you and stars had it kind of bought.
Wait to, I want the camera to do this, you know, like, well, the framing and the lens and I was like, oh that's so cool. You know, it's really interesting, I think.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was certainly what we were kind of pushing towards. It's a shame no one will ever get to see that.
[00:48:40] Speaker A: But yes, we know what we made, Joel. We know what we made.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: I know.
Yeah.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: The sense of weight there actually has more than one probably meaning especially for we were working towards because at least for Stasi and I was very imperative that our camera had a weighted, grounded feeling. And we went through a lot of painstakes to make sure that like our post processing in the camera and the way the camera behaved could actually feel like it was something that was shot through an actual physical camera. Because that's what we like. And so we have full creative control. So that's what we're making.
[00:49:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that was a fresh, you know, unique. No, I mean there are other games that have tried to do something similar, but I think the way that you framed it and in the type of game we were making, I think that would have given it a really interesting, you know, feel that, you know, much like people talked about the one are in God of War, you know, the first the God of War reboot. Right.
[00:49:37] Speaker B: Like I tried doing that. They wouldn't let me.
[00:49:40] Speaker A: I wouldn't have let you, Joel. That's too much work, man.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Especially for a multiplayer game. That would have been an absolute insanity.
[00:49:46] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Super impressed that Santa Monica pulled it off, but. Cool. Dear.
But yeah, you know, I think, I think bringing that. I mean when you think about how many directors cuts and behind the scenes videos you watch of like how people put effort into the way the camera moves and camera shake and all these kind of things in linear media. Right. Like there's no reason why some of those rules can't apply to interactive media and we can find ways to bring them in.
I wanted to just go back slightly.
You made that shift from sort of non gaming into gaming and you sort of had an interesting sort of intermediary period where you were in game dev but not, you know, not the developer side, you were the creative services side. Right. Equally not saying that one is more valid than the other, but it was a different angle of game dev.
When did you. When did it dawn on you that you wanted to make video games? Was that always in your head or had it never really come up until you got to that point?
[00:50:43] Speaker B: You mean like getting into the industry or like actually moving on to the dev side?
[00:50:46] Speaker A: I think both. Right. Getting into the industry but then also moving into the developer side.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: So for the first one, I honestly never even consider it like the idea of someone like me joining the game dev industry was such like a.
Was such a. It felt like an impossible dream. Like, it felt like, like something that never, ever actually happened. So, like, it was never something I even considered until I was talking to Andre and I was like, oh, wait, this is a possibility. Holy crap. Okay, hold on. Let me see if I could do this.
And then once I was in the industry and then when. When I was given the chance to join the game dev side, it was just like, crap, I can do this, I guess. Okay, cool. A little bit of temporary minor panic and then, yeah, I just kind of just went with it, I guess.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, not something. I think it's not uncommon for people to kind of not really think they can make games and then find out, oh, wait, I can. Cool.
I think, I think that's. There's so many of us that I think that's. That's true. Certainly true for. For me as well.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: And then having been a developer now, you know, for several years and been in the industry for multiple years, like, has that changed you as a gamer at all?
[00:52:00] Speaker B: It. 100% has. I really struggled to turn off my game dev brain when I'm playing games.
A lot of times I find myself playing and I'm like, I would have done it differently. Why is this there? Why is this animation out of sync? This iframes are not where they should be. This is pissed me off. So I really have to make an active, conscious effort and to not do that, but only with newer games. Like, if I go back and play games from before I was a game dev, I don't have any issue with that. But when I'm playing modern game now, I have to like, like I said, literally make an active effort to not get into game dev mode.
[00:52:37] Speaker A: Right. Okay. Yeah. It's hard to turn off the analytical part.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: And yeah, like, I've, I've. This is mostly your fault, but I've definitely played a bunch of games where I'll start playing and I'm like, I can't do this. Alex is in my head. These iframes are off. This animation is out of sync. I can't play this. I'm putting this out.
[00:52:53] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sorry. I've made it worse.
I've infected you with the same illness that I have. I'm sorry. Sorry about that.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting. And I'm trying to sort of track the.
The Final Fantasy is your sort of initial inspiration. Right. That immersion that, you know, that characterization that Ability to kind of feel the world, feel the tone of the game, you know, through feels like that is when I hear you speak about what you try to bring to your role and you try to bring to games in your development role, it feels like there's a through line there to me.
Is that a leap?
[00:53:30] Speaker B: No, I don't think there is. I don't think so. I think I try to, like, I just, when I play in games, I kind of resonate more with the characters and we're like the deep lore. Right. And so when I approach my designs, I kind of want that.
[00:53:47] Speaker B: I want those feelings to kind of show through or at least to be enhanced by what we're presenting.
And so, and I feel like at least for me, it's a little more, it's a little easier to do that with like character moments or like kind of.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't really think of a better way than just kind of enhance the feelings that we want the player to feel. Because at the end of the day, all media, you're trying to kind of hopefully kind of have feelings kind of swell up on the viewer. Right. And so I try to do that with my design is kind of enhance that like whatever the emotions we're trying to tell, whatever the impact, the emotional impact that we're trying to kind of instill on the player. And I try to use my work to enhance that.
And I feel like that's, at least for me, that's easier and more relevant to do in these sweeping character narratives than in, I don't know, maybe like a fighting game, which you can certainly, you certainly can do that. But at least for me, it's far more interesting to do that in a character driven model.
[00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like there's a correlation there between the way those primitive eight bit graphics made you feel and how the camera is such an important part of framing the way a game feels. Now it makes sense to me that that will be a place you'd find home because it feels like there's some overlap.
[00:55:09] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And to be honest, I don't know that I've ever thought about it that way, but yeah, that makes perfect sense.
[00:55:15] Speaker A: Cool.
And then obviously you mentioned, you know, you and your wife moved across country. You know, how does your wife and how does your family kind of relate to your role and what you do?
[00:55:26] Speaker B: Well, my wife's always been super supportive of my, all my crazy creative endeavors.
She, she's, she's definitely not what one would call a creative person. And she will be the first person to tell you that, but she's always been supportive, and she was like, okay, if this is something inside of you, then let's. Let's explore it. Let's see. Let's see how. How this pans out.
So she's been very supportive without understanding why it is, why we do the things that we do.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. And. And what about your brothers? And, you know, still. Still gamers today, still playing. Do you still play games? And.
[00:56:00] Speaker B: Yeah, my brothers are. They're both. They're actually both engineers, so they're both. They're both.
They're both engineers in banking.
So they've always. So they are gamers, and they've always had this desire to kind of be in the game industry. So when I joined the game industry, there was like, oh, my God, you're living the dream. So they're so hardcore gamers. My brother, one of my brothers, is really big into, like, the competitive fighting game scene, and my youngest brother still just cranks out games of Starcraft 2 on a regular basis, like hardcore multiplayer games. So. Yeah.
[00:56:35] Speaker A: Okay. Right. So remains a sort of important part of your life and.
[00:56:39] Speaker B: Absolutely.
And it always will be.
[00:56:41] Speaker A: Yes. Agreed. Here.
[00:56:44] Speaker A: Cool. Well, thank you, Joel. I really appreciate your time. It's a really good conversation. I love how your story is kind of weaved, you know, from outside games into games through, you know, through different layers. And. And it feels to me like what inspired you? The Navy. Right. Key parts of your life have really maintained, really defined who you are as a developer and in turn, reflect back who you are as a human and a gamer. So I feel like it really hits on the soul of what this podcast is about.
[00:57:12] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thanks for having me. Hopefully created some interesting content and hoping people enjoy it.
[00:57:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you for your time. Appreciate it.
[00:57:20] Speaker B: Awesome. Thanks, man.
