Dev to Dev S01 E03 - Chris Peters

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hello everybody, and welcome to Another episode of DevtoDev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. I'm Alex Sulman again here for another exciting conversation, diving deep into another developer's experience and history. And today I'm here with Chris Peters. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Sorry, I thought you were going to say, formerly of ZeniMax Online Studios QA. [00:00:29] Speaker A: Yay. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously ex colleagues. Yeah, we work together at Zos. But yeah, thank you for taking the time. I'm really excited to kind of dig into this conversation. I always like to kick it off with sort of going right back to, you know, your origins. What, what made you first fall in love with video games? [00:00:53] Speaker B: That's a good question. Honestly, probably playing games with my dad. He was always a PC gamer, so that's, that's how I was raised. Like, I think Windows 95 was my first operating system when I was like 4 or 5 years old. And I remember specifically we had this game called Machine Hunter that was, I, I can never remember what the actual game it was a clone of because, you know, it was back in the, the days where everybody was ripping off everything. Not that they do that anymore, but yeah, it was like a top down shooter thing where you play as this dude and the real fun part was he would find these bosses that were actual robots and you would, you know, kill them and then you could walk into them and become that robot and then you could start tearing stuff up as that robot. And they were all unique and there were different environments and stuff. My favorite part was actually playing against each other. We had to, this is back in the day when you had to actually physically connect the, the computers together to be able to play Land. And, and so I, I want to say I remember beating him more than he beat me, but who knows? Interesting. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Playing with you, playing that with your dad was, is kind of what, what sticks in your mind as a good stuff. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, and I, I was really late to the console game. Like my, my first video game console was the PS1 that I got from a friend when he got a PS2. So. But after that I jumped into GameCube and that was probably where I really like fell in love with video games. Especially like my, my passion now is level design and I specifically remember playing Time Splitters two and just spending hours and hours and hours in the map maker in that game. And I think I lost those memory cards. So I probably, I can't even go back and critique what I had, but I'm sure I'm sure it was fantastic. [00:02:57] Speaker A: I'm sure they were stellar, ready to ship. Okay, so. So playing games with your dad, playing multiplayer, you know, with your dad too, you know, kind of on PC primarily and then moving over to console. Okay. And sort of in those early days, when did you first think that you could make video games or be involved in the making of video games? [00:03:19] Speaker B: Actually that wasn't until like my 20s. I, I always loved games, but where I grew up was they call it Pennsyl Tucky, South Central Pennsylvania and it's mostly like blue collar kind of stuff around there. So I was, you know, me and my 10 or 15 friends that all play games and stuff, we were the weirdos that didn't like going hunting and mudding and all that kind of stuff. All the indoor kids. So yeah, it wasn't, yeah, I, yeah, it wasn't until my twenties when I had gotten fired from a welding job and I went on like a soul searching trip across, across the country to visit some friends and come back. And a friend of mine, Wisconsin had gotten in the game industry a few years prior to that. He actually got in from Twitch. Like there's a game called Duelist, I don't know if you ever heard of that. It was a really, really cool idea. It was like a chessboard style game but with like card like deck building stuff so you try to kill the other player and they would have stuff to blow block you and all that. Anyway, he got good at being like second best in the world is the worst faction in the game and then they invited him to start making cards, you know, for that. Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, but ultimately he knew some people at ZeniMax and got me in touch with them. Did like a little introductory, like I can't remember if it was an actual interview or just like Facebook chat or something, but then I applied to ZeniMax for QA and I must have tricked them pretty well because they gave me the job. But yeah, that's so, yeah, it wasn't until my twenties that I really thought it was a possibility because it always just seemed like this, you know, I was in the wrong place for that kind of thing and didn't necessarily see a lot of avenues to sort of escape that area. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Got it right. So you grew up in an area where you were kind of like say an indoor kid, you know, maybe a little bit, you know, on the outside of what everybody else did. He had some friends. Did you have any family? Were there any, any brothers and sisters. [00:05:30] Speaker B: That, that, that you, you know, play video games with my little sister. She's five years younger than me. We played a little bit, but she was more in the like Sims style of gamer. We did play like Smash Brothers and stuff like that a little bit, but she always got pretty frustrated because one, I was five years older than her and I had played a lot more than she had. So yeah, we usually did like team stuff. I wasn't just beating up on my. But yeah, she, she definitely more of like a casual style player. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Got it right. So, so primarily a gamer consumer I guess, you know, for, for, you know, as a young, a young man. And then you went to, you went to technology school and I guess through high school you were, you were just a gamer, right? You had no aspirations to, to be in games? [00:06:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean I love the idea, but I didn't think it was possible. [00:06:22] Speaker A: It was possible. Got it. Yeah. Yep. Same as me. And then. So after, so you went to a technology school like after college you, like you said you were, you were kind of a welder and you were sort of in a non gaming, non gaming jobs, but presumably still a big gamer, you know, at home. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I bounced around a couple of different manual labor jobs and then restaurants and got into welding for five years. But yeah, there every now and then I would meet somebody who was like, especially, especially the blue collar stuff. I would meet like one or two people out of a handful of places that I worked that were like. When I told this one guy, there's this warehouse job that I was like hooked on Oblivion, you know, pre remaster. [00:07:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:10] Speaker B: He was like, oh my God, I played the, out of that game, man. And he was like so stoked. Like we had each other on Xbox and, and then when I quit, I remember he was like, man, I'm not gonna have anybody to talk to talk about video games with anymore. I'm sorry, man. We got, we got our gamer tags. We're good. [00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. Online makes the world a small place. So so that's interesting. So, so kind of geographically where you grew up gaming was, you know, there were you, when you found a tribe it was like, oh, you're a gamer too. [00:07:38] Speaker B: Oh yeah, exactly. [00:07:39] Speaker A: Minority. Interesting. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially in the blue collar world. It's just not really a thing. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Not a thing in the same way. Got it right. So the fire burned bright. Even if it was, you know, rarely, rarely connected with anyone. [00:07:51] Speaker B: I can't turn it off. [00:07:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I love that. And you know, clearly the passion, the passion for gaming in Terms of. You mentioned kind of, you know, playing multiplayer games with your dad and Smash Brothers. What were the kind of games that really drew you in at that time? [00:08:06] Speaker B: There were a bunch of things. So like every Friday from like middle school to high school, I had these like two or three friends that would come over. They'd all come over my house. We just like play gamecube or PlayStation or whatever. People brought stuff over. So like, I remember we played like a million hours of 007 Nightfire. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Yep. [00:08:27] Speaker B: On GameCube. I had a ton of fun playing that. Same with Time Splitters. Sorry, I feel like I've already veered off of your question. [00:08:38] Speaker A: No, just. Yeah, no, it's good. Yeah. The kind of games that you were sort of playing in that era sounds quite, quite spread out, quite varied. Right. You were playing quite a lot of stuff. [00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah, pretty much anything that allowed like two to four players we would play. Especially like when Rock Band came out, we played a ton of that. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:54] Speaker B: Like even like top down stuff. Definitely first person shooters. Just anything that was fun and even stuff that wasn't fun. You still have fun sometimes. [00:09:04] Speaker A: They could be, they could be interesting too. And, and sort of in that time you're sort of. You have aspirations maybe to make video games, but an assumption that you can't. Did you try any modding? Did you try any kind of, you know, homebrew stuff, anything like that? [00:09:18] Speaker B: No. And honestly, I regret not having tried that. I just, I don't think I was really aware of that world because like my, my dad was, was the first person that introduced me to video games. But he gets real bad motion sickness, so he was super limited to what he could play. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:35] Speaker B: And so whenever I would try to show him like Half Life or you know, something like that, he was just like, he could watch for about like 10 seconds then have to look away for a minute or two. [00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:46] Speaker B: So, yeah, I just never thought about it. None of my friends were really into any of that kind of stuff. I did like download different mods for, for stuff, but it never clicked in my head at the time, like, oh, I could try making something. [00:09:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:01] Speaker B: So yeah, I was just a super late bloomer to all that. I think, you know, my environment played a large role in that. [00:10:08] Speaker A: I was going to say. Yeah, yeah. I think if you're not sort of immersed in that field. Right. You know, sort of. You only know what you know. [00:10:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:10:17] Speaker A: You only know what's relative. [00:10:18] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And it was, you know, most of what I heard from people is like, well, you need to go get a job. And the jobs here are, you know, these five things or whatever. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:28] Speaker B: But I will say my passion for level design has always been there because any game that had any kind of like map editor, I, I love the, I loved it to death. Like, it was just so cool getting to like make something in a video game and then being able to play it. [00:10:44] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:10:44] Speaker B: So, so yeah, that, that was always kind of, you know, sitting in the back of my mind. It just never dawned on me to, to really try to pursue it for, for a while. [00:10:53] Speaker A: I mean it makes me. I was similar. I was building maps for, you know, for games and like, never for a second did I think I was making video games. I was making maps for someone else's game. [00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:03] Speaker A: So it didn't feel like I was making video games, but I kind of was. Right. I was inspired. Similar to you if you spend hours in time splitters building maps. Right. You are, you know. So what was it about the kind of level design, map design element that drew you, do you think? [00:11:22] Speaker B: I don't know. I guess I liked just making weird stuff, honestly. Like not things that were like bad, but just trying to like push the limits of different map editors and stuff. Especially remember with time splitters, there were some like pretty hefty limitations on like, you know, rooms only had doors on these certain spots and you had to, you know, find the pieces that fit together. And I remember trying to make these like multi level maps that like, like kind of sort of work but not really like, you know, I was trying to make these, these grand rooms that had multiple levels and it just wasn't possible. But I still tried to sort of cheat it as much as I could to get these like open areas and stuff. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, just that kind of creativity. I've been a musician for a long time too, and I feel like it's, it's. They kind of go hand in hand in the sense that like, you know, with music you have a set amount of notes that you can play. Yep. And you know, everybody's heard every single note that's ever been at this point in human history. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:33] Speaker B: But you know, there's still a way to arrange them or you know, you make some weird jazz chord nobody's ever heard of, whatever. And you can make this new thing out of these old parts. And I feel like level design is kind of similar where, you know, everybody's been inside of a building. So like we all know what floors, ceilings and walls look like. Right. But there's still a way to take that and twist it and turn it around and like, you know, it could still be a box but you know, you throw some weird visual thing in there or a trigger that, you know, flips the room 90 degrees or you know, just something that people haven't seen before. It's still possible, which is awesome. [00:13:10] Speaker A: That's really interesting. So it's, it's that playing within the rule set but trying to break it, that sounds like, you know, relates you, you sort of gravitate to that in music because that's what, you know, like you said, it's kind of what music is. And, and a map editor is perfect. Right. Because there's already a very established set of rules within the way the map edit within the game works. But sounds like you were trying to break those rules as much, seeing how. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Far you can push the walls. [00:13:34] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And remix stuff. That's, that's cool. Interesting. Right? So, so, so you're, so you are actively being creative in video games. You're not just consuming even if you, you don't, you're not clear on your, your ability to actually do that professionally. [00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:51] Speaker A: But you're obviously drawn to that type of experience. And then like you said, you, you, you had a couple of kind of manual labor jobs and then the Zos job came up through, you know, a connection from a friend. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker A: What was that like going from, you know, an entirely non game dev role into directly into an actual game dev role. What was that transition like? [00:14:13] Speaker B: It was definitely a culture shock, you know, because I, you know, went from, you know, working with people that said like racial slurs and also sweating my ass off every day to like an air conditioned office with like actually like minded people and stuff. So that, that part was really exciting. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker B: And it was funny. Like looking back, I, I definitely like way overdressed for the first like two or three months because you know, like in the, in the welding days, you know, I just wore like whatever burnt up dirty jeans and weld jacket and stuff that I had and I was wearing like collared shirts to the office and like my nice pants because I never got to wear them anywhere. So yeah, it was, it was cool and it was a lot of fun. Especially you know, not having been anywhere near the industry outside of you know, the sort of consumer side of things. Like I thought it was amazing that I got to like play inside the guts of Elder Scrolls online, like learning the different tools to make quests and like, you know, especially when I was trying to Find bugs and all that, you know, figuring out where to look if you know, know you don't have the magic sword on step three of the quest, like, where did it go? Stuff like that. And it was funny after I really started, like after I got my feet under me and really started understanding what was going on, it was when I would play other games. I think Borderlands 3 came out while I, you know, my first few months and as I was playing through different quests and stuff, I was like, oh, there's a trigger, volume, there's. [00:16:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:00] Speaker B: You know, like all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it was, it was really cool. And it's still like it even today. Like now that I am trying to focus on level design, trying to pivot my, my new free time and into building a portfolio for that kind of stuff. I really try to like analyze the levels specifically as I'm going through and see where, you know, I walk through this door and enemies spawn over here and then I kill them, then they spawn behind me. Or like different lighting changes or especially any kind of level that like really, really messes with like the structural stuff around you, you know, you hit a button and you know, a secret door pops up under the ground. And all that kind of stuff is just super cool. [00:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Scripting and all that. That's, that's the thing I'm trying to work on now. Like Block out is super fun. I really enjoy doing that. But like I need to be able to do a little more than block out, so. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Making the level come alive and have. [00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I always think of that Titanfall 2 level where you're like flipping back and forward in time like that. That's like some amazing stuff and like. Yeah, like control. There's some crazy level design in there. [00:17:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, agreed. And it's interesting that, you know, you, you, you seem very drawn to that side, you know, both of the thing of the, you know, the profession. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:34] Speaker A: That, you know, working on eso, kind of, you know, online joining that and being first party qa. Right. So you're with the developers. You can go ask the developers, like, why did this happen? What. You know, and sort of understand the nuts and bolts based on what you were doing prior to that feels like, you know, and, and based on who you were surrounded by prior to that, you know, it feels like, yeah, right. You've suddenly got like minded folks all around you and free access to kind of pull apart the guts of something and work within its lines. Especially in qa. Right. Because you are kind of effectively you're working within the lines of the game, as expected. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:14] Speaker A: But you can, say, get exposure to the tool sets and the functionality and understand how it works. [00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I can't speak to how other places do qa, but I know at Zenimax, you know, we were like encouraged to get creative and kind of deviate from, you know, obviously cover everything in a test plan, but, you know, deviate from that to like, try to find other stuff that some, you know, some squirrely kid playing the game out in the wild, it's going to try to do. To break stuff. Yeah, yeah. [00:18:45] Speaker A: And that feels like that suits that desire that you have of kind of trying to break, break the established rules and put things together in different combinations. I mean, a lot of that's, you know, that's bread and butter to qa, right? [00:18:56] Speaker B: Like. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly in that order instead of the order I'm supposed to. [00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And I remember before I started, I did a ton of research on what exactly QA does because I didn't want to, you know, I just gotten done welding and I. The last like two or two and a half years of that, I really didn't enjoy it anymore. And I had bounced around in those five years to like five different companies, some on my own and some not. But yeah, I wanted to make sure I wasn't jumping out of the frying pan into the fire and end up in some other job that I was gonna hate and, you know, potentially ruin video games for myself or something like that, you know. Yeah. But. Oh, I forgot where I was going with that. I'm sorry. [00:19:39] Speaker A: That's right. You did a lot of research. You kind of made sure you understood what QA was going to be. [00:19:46] Speaker B: I did think of a funny story though, going back to your question about like when I first came into qa, it was funny when I would do like world passes for different zones in Eso. I was writing bugs for stuff that wasn't, wouldn't have been structurally sound because I was still, I was still thinking of like structural steel and all that kind of stuff. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, I was like writing bugs for like, you know, well, this pier couldn't stand here because like this, this, this like pillar is going into stone and there's no possible way that you could have half a pillar, like, you know, part of it exposed and it's still structurally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, stuff like that. [00:20:28] Speaker A: So applying your kind of real world profession to. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I got a coup wads back or works as designed for that. [00:20:36] Speaker A: But Yeah, I can imagine. [00:20:38] Speaker B: Oh, I think I remember where I was going with the, the QA research thing. Yeah, Part of it was when I, Because I, I remember seeing there were a handful of different places that were hiring for qa and I had heard stories about, you know, like horror stories about the like third party QA farms. And I think Red Dead 2 was about to come out and there were like all these articles about like their qa people working 100 hour weeks and, you know, having bug quotas and all that kind of stuff. [00:21:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:15] Speaker B: And so I felt really lucky that I got into ZeniMax because I saw that it had a really low turnover rate and, you know, it was one of the few companies where a lot of people been there for like at least five years or something like that, which I didn't realize how rare that was. [00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:37] Speaker B: Not necessarily the fault of anyone, but yeah, but yeah, that like, so what I was trying to get at was, you know, I don't, depending on what the audience is for the show, if there are people that are thinking about getting into the industry and stuff, like, definitely do your research and yeah, try to be just mindful and especially like, because I didn't know anything about the industry before I got in. Yeah, I, I went on to like different forums and YouTube and Reddit and like try to find interviews and any kind of information I could about what QA was like because I was really only familiar with the horror stories. Yeah, yeah. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:18] Speaker B: So it was comforting. Yeah, it was comforting to find that there actually are nice places to work for. For quality insurance. [00:22:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's fascinating for, you know, for someone that, you know, got to the point, I mean, you didn't necessarily. You obviously got the job because you were, you skilled, you know, they loved you and they hired you, but you kind of fell into it. Right. You didn't have an aspiration. You know, other people I spoke to, like, no, I knew right away that this is what I was going to do and I was going to go and I was not that person. I was the person similarly that was like, I'll never get into video games. Best I could do is write about them. And then almost got lucky that I got a job that turned out to be a job at a really great company. So it's kind of fascinating to, you know, to hear your side of that. You know, kind of walking, almost walking into a job that you had no context for, but obviously you had a lot of passion for it because you went and did your own research and Made sure you knew what you were getting into, which I think is great. It's great advice. I completely agree. [00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I feel like that applies in general when you're looking for different jobs and stuff. Like. [00:23:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:17] Speaker B: You know, people always recommend you learn something about the company you're trying to, to work at. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's a good point. [00:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I recently like, interviewed for a job at Epic and I think they sussed out the fact that I don't play Fortnite very much. [00:23:33] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:23:34] Speaker B: Because I ended up getting turned down for that. Which is fine. You know. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:37] Speaker B: I don't want to work in the Fortnite minds anyway. [00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. But yeah, it was, it is interesting. Yeah. How beneficial it can be to kind of at least have a solid understanding. But I mean, coming from kind of outside the industry into the industry is a very unusual transition. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:55] Speaker A: It's kind of hard to. You have no context. Like you said, you kind of had no context for what you're walking into other than horror stories. So. Okay, so. So yeah, so you find yourself at Zos and, you know, and work, you know, work your way up through there. How did getting into the industry, and you kind of mentioned this a little bit, but how did getting into the industry change who you were as a gamer? [00:24:21] Speaker B: It definitely made me more, not necessarily critical, but analytical games, especially when I, you know, obviously like AAA stuff is super polished and all that, but looking at more like double A or even indie size games, like being able to pick apart kind of what people have done, like, especially the main thing is being able to like, clearly define what I like and don't like about stuff. Because I had a similar thing, you know, when I was a kid learning to play music. It wasn't until, you know, I was in my late teens that I figured out how to describe what I liked and didn't like about music. [00:25:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:10] Speaker B: Similar thing with, with gaming is it wasn't until I sort of knew the ins and outs of how games are put together. And especially, you know, when friends are being like critical about games and stuff and be like, well, can I explain to you why that is like that? And how much of a pain in the ass it was to get it even to that level. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:34] Speaker B: You know, like that kind of stuff. Like, it just, it gave me a much better appreciation for what actually goes into games because, you know, when I was a kid, it was just. You just throw the disc or the cartridge in and then magic happens in front of you and, you know, it just Came like that, you know, nobody had to try. You just. Yeah. [00:25:52] Speaker A: Appeared. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, just. Yeah, that's pretty much it. [00:26:01] Speaker A: I mean, a great appreciation for the process and for the end product. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And being able to decipher what's going on and especially now that I'm trying to make my own stuff, you know, being able to analyze what, what I'm seeing on screen and having at least an idea of where to start with. Like, you know, if I wanted to make, you know, a gun do a certain thing or whatever, like I have a basis to, to start from if I wanted to recreate something like that. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess. Especially, you know, working your way up to a lead, early testing. It kind of gave you a vocabulary to kind of speak to specifics about what, how a game functioned, what was good, what was bad. Whereas before that maybe it was, it was more guesswork. [00:26:49] Speaker B: I will say I'm still like terrible at a lot of games, but I at least understand why. [00:26:55] Speaker A: Right. Terrible as in you find them hard to play. You just. You don't feel like you're particularly. [00:27:01] Speaker B: No, I mean like first person shooters I'm really good at. But like especially my time on ESO, like anytime we had to do PvP, it was just a nightmare for me. Like I, I can't, I can manage, you know, a couple of magazines of bullets and some grenades, but if you give me a hot bar of like more than three things to hit and I gotta manage mana and stamina, I'm just like, just kill me too much. [00:27:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, definitely a certain play style. Not for everyone, I'm very sure. Okay. Okay. So that's, that's cool. I love that idea of it, you know, you. It sort of enhancing your ability to enjoy video games after, you know, having, you know, having got into the industry. For some people it's the opposite. Right. Some people are kind of. And it sounds like you had a similar fear, you know, that you were going to kind of go into it and then it was going to ruin. Yeah. What you love. [00:27:50] Speaker B: But it was funny like, because I had played a little bit of ESO before I started. Like I had bought the base game just to make sure I knew kind of how it worked. Yeah. Because I hadn't played since the beta. I used to work at this burrito shop and one of the writers for ESO back in the day, like used to like live nearby, would come in and gave me and my buddy a beta key back in the day. That was pretty cool. Yeah. Oh, man, I keep losing my train of thought. So you. [00:28:19] Speaker A: You picked up ESO so you could play it? [00:28:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And it was funny. So after I got the job, we were working on the Graymore expansion, was. Was the Skyrim one. And all my friends were so stoked that I was working for a video game company that they all got ESO and wanted to play it, like, at night. I was like, the first, like, two or three weeks, I was fine with it. And then after the first month, I was like, guys, I just did this for eight hours. [00:28:44] Speaker A: Please don't let me do it in the evening. Yeah, that's very natural. Yeah. Yeah, I was. People would always say to me when I was we a tester, like, oh, you get to play video games all day? I'm like, no, I get to play a video game all day. [00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Sometimes the same part of a video game all day. I don't want to play that video. [00:29:00] Speaker B: Game the rest of the day. Especially after I became a lead and I, you know, was the lead for tools. Whenever people would ask, like, my wife and I, what we do, like, she does marketing for John Deere, and people knew what that was. And then I would start to say what I've. What I did, and then she would interrupt and say, he plays video games all day. That's not even remotely close to what I do anymore. I basically stare at, like, bug reports and Excel sheets. Like, that's my job now. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So. So that. That's an interesting angle that I wanted to sort of dig into, because QA is not, you know, QA is diverse. Right. There are different types of testing you can do. And I think, you know, your shift from testing a game to testing the tools for a game is really interesting. How did you find that, that approach, you know, sort of going behind the curtain even more and really testing the. The functionality of how the game's made. [00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So that I had a pretty heavy duty ulterior motive. Sorry, my phone's going crazy. I had an ulterior motive because I had already decided that I wanted to do level design at this point. [00:30:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:04] Speaker B: Because I bounced around, like, I talked to some producers and I talked to sound designers and stuff, and ultimately came back to level design. That's what I've always been into. And so my thinking was, if I get to spend all day in the tools, then now I get to be an expert at the level editor. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:23] Speaker B: And then from there, I can, you know, get into a junior associate level design role and just walk right in. [00:30:32] Speaker A: I Love that. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah, that was. That was the. My main motivation. But I also thought it was really cool, like, kind of like what I was saying earlier when I first got the eso, messing around in those tools was really cool. And to. To get to play around in these newer tools that, granted the state that they were in, wasn't super great, but it was really cool going from when I first came on in, like, 20, 21 and, you know, to where they, you know, stopped a month ago. [00:31:05] Speaker A: It was. [00:31:06] Speaker B: It was wild to see how much everything had changed. And the fact that I got to be a part of that and, you know, give some feedback and all that kind of stuff is super cool. Yeah, I'm just a nerd for that kind of stuff. [00:31:19] Speaker A: So. So that's interesting. Yeah. So you were kind of. You're kind of drawn to that feedback loop, right? That test something, you know, get direct, give feedback, get feedback back on it, see it improve. [00:31:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, I don't want to throw shade at people that do, like, just the client side of stuff, but I feel like, like the tool side, except it's just a different wavelength, you know, different. Different brain style. Yeah. And I've always just been. Been drawn to that. I feel like. I don't want to say it's easier to play a game because I definitely had plenty of challenges doing that, but I guess I like the challenges of tool stuff more. [00:32:00] Speaker A: Right, right. And again, that almost feels like it fits that model of, you know, tools are a box. Right. There is a way in which the tool is meant to function, and you are kind of pushing at those edges, giving feedback, you know, and taking feedback from other folks and trying to, you know, figure out how to improve things. And I think that sort of almost fits that model as well, of kind of, you know, probing at the edges and trying to make something better and push it further than it currently is. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Feels like there's a pattern there, Chris. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah, just a little bit. [00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I love. That's kind of what I've been. I've been sort of uncovering in these conversations. Right. There is a pattern of what you. What you do in the industry and who you are as a person. And I mean, it's natural, I think. Right. You know, you're drawn to things that. That. [00:32:50] Speaker B: That. [00:32:51] Speaker A: That connects with you as a person, so it makes sense. But how the nuance of how those shape up and relate to the individual person, I think is really fascinating. I mean, you mentioned music as being kind of a corollary to this kind of process. You still feel like there's overlap there and, you know, the kind of the creativity and the approach that you take from music and what you do. [00:33:10] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Because even, like, even with music, I, you know, some of my other band members, you know, they'll come up with like a riff or two. My, My brain always thinks of, like, the full picture. So how are we going to take these two riffs, you know, add one or two more and then put them all together where there's a good flow and stuff like that. And yeah, like, level design is. [00:33:35] Speaker A: I was gonna say, just describe level design right there. [00:33:39] Speaker B: Orchestrating an experience to, you know, be, you know, either familiar or completely alien, you know, however you want to make it. Yeah, so, yeah, that's. I love that stuff. [00:33:53] Speaker A: Yeah. So it definitely connects with you as a person. You, you also kind of mentioned that, you know, friends have kind of related to your job. Like, you know, and how does he. How did, how do your friends and family kind of relate to what you do as a profession? [00:34:08] Speaker B: Well, my family doesn't really get it. Like, nobody's really a gamer. It's not like they, like, they're all happy that, you know, I've, I've found this field that I'm, like, clearly passionate about. Yeah. But, like, even my dad, I don't think he plays games anymore at all. And, like, I don't think my sister does either. So mostly it's just my friends that, that mostly think it's cool, but they, they have spent the last, like two or three years asking when the new Elder Scrolls is going to come out. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:40] Speaker B: I keep telling them either the two answers I gave were, I don't know because I don't work at that studio, or it's going to be Elder Scrolls 6, Skyrim 2, Electric Boogaloo. [00:34:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:55] Speaker B: It'll be out in three, three weeks. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:57] Speaker B: Or something. I don't. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Yeah, just put them off the scene. Yeah. I think, I think again, hearing a family that, you know, you know, appreciates what you do but doesn't necessarily understand it, I think is. Yeah, I'm kind of fascinated to see if our kids will kind of have a different experience there. [00:35:18] Speaker B: Sure. [00:35:18] Speaker A: Oh, no. Yeah, my dad made video games or, you know, my, My mum made video games for years, you know, whatever. I'm kind of curious. It still feels like we're sort of at that cusp where lots of people have kind of grown up being like the, the black sheep in the family, as it were. You know, the, the, the developer one of the few developers. And, yeah, it's kind of interesting how that's still the case. [00:35:37] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. [00:35:39] Speaker A: Okay, so, yeah, I have a question for you, actually. [00:35:43] Speaker B: Do your kids know that you're like, like, like kind of secretly famous, you know, like within the Canadian industry? [00:35:51] Speaker A: I mean, I. I would say that they're aware. I. I've occasionally played a podcast that I'm on, just Rand. I throw on Alexa just to. Just to like, throw them off. And they're like, sure, what is that? Why is Daddy. I was on a podcast. They're like, what? And my eldest son actually, who's 17, he's discovered very. I mean, I've sent some of my videos to him, but he's like, he randomly discovered a video that I completely forgotten about of me demoing 24 when I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, late 20s. And he was like, who is this with the snapper? I was like, yeah, that's me. Just from a long time ago, dude. So I think, yeah, I think they understand. They've seen me sort of, you know, do various things, but most of the games I've worked on, my, you know, my two youngest kids can't play yet, so. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Sure. [00:36:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Wait, they're not playing God of War yet? [00:36:42] Speaker A: Sadly not. No. It's just a little. Yeah, just a little on the cuff. [00:36:48] Speaker B: You don't wanna. You don't want them to see, you know, if their eyes getting gouged out. [00:36:51] Speaker A: No, no. Hercules face bash. Yes, Yes, I made that happen. Yeah, I did. Smush that thing. No, not yet. Not yet. Soon, though, maybe. Prime. I think we were going to do prime on a Heavenly sword. I think they might. They'd probably be fun, but they'll probably also find them very old and slow. But my. Actually, one of my kids does play a lot of retro games, so. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:37:13] Speaker A: He kind of appreciates a lot of the older stuff, so can't imagine why, but he does. Okay, so I'm curious. Has at any point, you know, in your sort of professional career, has it really affected your. Your love of games? Is it, you know, have you fallen out of love of games because of what you're doing? You mentioned, you know, funny, hard to play ESL at home. I think that makes complete sense. But has it ever sort of negatively affected you, or has it always been kind of an enhancing experience? [00:37:42] Speaker B: Not really, because I. I never really played MMOs, so it was. It was kind of a nice fit because, you know, I got to test a game that was actually pretty good. Well, it was a fantastic game. I Don't wanna, I don't want to make it sound like that. Like I. All the time I did spend playing eso, I did enjoy it. And please, please keep supporting those folks. [00:38:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:38:10] Speaker B: But yeah, no, so like that, that type of game was just never in my wheelhouse. The project that would have been was definitely more something I, I could see myself playing. And I think the fact that, you know, assuming, you know, two years from now, if it had come out and you know, people were neck deep in it, I think the fact that I was working on tools primarily, I think kind of would have rescued me from overdoing it. Yeah, but really, I mean, these days my bread and butter is mostly first person shooters with the occasional like third person and stuff. But, but no, I mean, at least to date, nothing I've worked on has made me stop loving games. [00:38:58] Speaker A: That's good. [00:38:58] Speaker B: So I'm really happy about that. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's. [00:39:02] Speaker B: I don't know what else I would do exactly. [00:39:04] Speaker A: That's. Yeah. I dread the day that I can't look at a video game because I'm burned out on it. I don't know what, what on earth I would do. [00:39:12] Speaker B: I feel like I, I definitely take bigger breaks or not bigger breaks, maybe more frequent breaks. [00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:18] Speaker B: From games and stuff. Like, especially if, you know, back in the ESO days, if I was like really stuck on something. I've been working on the same quest forever, especially after the expansion came out and I tried playing it and I could basically just speedrun every quest that was in the expansion. Like I just kind of avoided that area and went like, did older stuff that I hadn't touched. [00:39:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. And, and is there, is there. Hang on, let me frame this question right when you were in a, you know, you mentioned kind of being in a more kind of blue collar profession before you got into video games. A lot of being a lot of video games is about the team. Right. It's about the collaboration. It's very cross, you know, very cross collaborative. It's hard to sort of be a lone wolf, you know, on most especially on a team like eso. How do you relate those. Was there, you know, an element of correlation there in terms of did you find. I mean, obviously you're around more folks of your, of your kind of style, you know, your kind of personality type and passion. So I'm sure that helped. But how did you find that, you know, transitioning between, you know, working in a more blue collar career and then shifting into kind of the more team. Team Focus. Is it the same? Is it different? [00:40:29] Speaker B: Honestly, most of, like, Esoqa was done kind of solitary. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:35] Speaker B: So, you know, we'd be given a quest and. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:40:38] Speaker B: You run it forwards and backwards and that kind of stuff. Now, we did have group passes where it would be, you know, a team of four people run through a quest to make sure all the steps work as expected and all that kind of stuff. So that part was usually pretty fun. You know, I. I don't mind being by myself. Like, I sometimes I prefer probably most of the time, but it is nice to, like, mix things up and work with a group and especially with my time as a lead, you know, trying to keep track of my team was eight people by the end. Yeah. So, you know, communication was everything. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:19] Speaker B: At that point. So going back to your question, though, when I was still welding, most of that was pretty solitary as well. Like, I'd be. I'd be working next to somebody, but we'd have our own, you know, thing that we were working on. So there wasn't a ton of collaboration outside of, you know, being trained on stuff or, like, if it was a safety thing or something like that. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So you mentioned kind of, you know, being kind of comfortable on your own. Would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert? [00:41:53] Speaker B: I'm definitely an introvert. I can't be an extrovert if I have enough liquid courage. [00:42:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So. So how did he find that becoming a lead? Right. And then having to, like, you say, cross collaborate a lot more and, you know, worry about other people's tasking and that kind of stuff. How was that? How that suit you as a person? [00:42:13] Speaker B: I don't know. I guess that. That didn't bother me too much at that point. Like, if I. If I'm confident in something, I don't mind talking about it. Honestly, probably the most sort of bashful I felt was, like, one of the first times that I had to bring something up in one of the big, like, director PO meetings that we had. And I was like, I'm about to talk in front of, like, eight people that could probably fire me if they wanted. But no, I mean, as far as, you know, my team, there's also the old fake it till you make it kind of thing. So. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Sure. [00:42:52] Speaker B: Just kind of feign confidence till you. You have it. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think I'm an introvert. I'm a faux extrovert is who I am. Right. Inherently. And I think. I think that point about if you're confident in what you're doing and you've got passion for what you're doing. It makes it a lot easier to kind of hide your introvertedness almost, you know, for sure. [00:43:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's. I kind of equate it to. There's a game called Hell at loose, that's 50 volts, 50 World War II, first person shooter, squad based thing. And I always like, the only times I ever ended up being squad leader is because somebody was doing it and then like quit or whatever and nobody else would do it. So I would take the reins because I. Somebody had to. That's. That was sort of initially how I felt when they first made me lead. Like I just had crazy impostor syndrome on a regular basis. Like people would ask me questions, I'd be like, it's maybe you probably do this, you know, something like that. Yeah. You know, over time you just kind of. I don't know if I got numb to it or if I actually got confident, but you know, I, it, it felt more natural eventually to start, you know, just giving out different advice and stuff. [00:44:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:11] Speaker B: And I think too, having been on the, the cancel game for so long helped me to have that confidence because I got to see, you know, every single baby step along the way. So the only, the only trouble that really caused was that I occasionally would have some outdated information still in my head. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:44:33] Speaker B: It's like, I'm pretty sure it does this. I'm like, no, it's not doing that at all. Yeah, yeah, just. Just kind of fake it till you make it and feel comfortable basically was how I operated as a lead. [00:44:47] Speaker A: That makes sense. And I mean, how does that, how do you think that introvertedness correlates with being a musician? [00:44:54] Speaker B: So that's kind of interesting. I, I mostly have played drums as far as like performing. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:00] Speaker B: So I was, I was in the back. Didn't necessarily have to have a mic unless I was doing backup vocals or something. But my, my main project now I'm the front man for, which is like completely out of my wheelhouse. And that was kind of another, you know, hella loose style thing where I was living at my. A friend of mine's house for a little while and, and I was paying rent. You know, nothing bad had happened. But no, they would, they would have band practice and I was busy doing my other band that I was drumming for and one night the guy that was their singer just like decided he was done and stopped showing up and my band practice had gotten canceled and so I was, you Know, had a couple whiskeys deep, and I heard him down there jamming. They had words for one song, so, right. Like, hey, I'll come sing for you guys. You know, whatever. And then they liked how my voice sounded. So from there, I ended up, like, getting back into guitar and doing all that stuff. But it was. Anyway, long story short, it was another, you know, someone needed to fill the role. Yeah. And, you know, two or three years later, now I'm the official frontman and. And going back to the imposter syndrome thing too. I remember our very first, like, our debut show. I. I usually, like, would have a couple of drinks when I would play just for nerves and stuff. And our debut show, I was trying to find the balance of just enough to be confident without playing like trash. And the funny thing was I. I found the balance, which was good. The. The bad part was when we got up on stage and I started talking like I suddenly couldn't feel my knees anymore. Like, it just got numb. So I'm, like, trying to, like, you know, as we start playing, trying to move around and stuff, you know, eventually. Eventually I got it figured out. Now nowadays, it's just kind of like, whatever. Yeah, but. Yeah, it's. You just kind of gotta power through that kind of thing. [00:47:08] Speaker A: But, you know, I can't help but wonder if, you know, you obviously have a lot of passion for music. You obviously have a lot of passion for games, and you have a lot of. You have some good experience in how games are made. It feels like both of them, those are good scenarios where you've got the right kind of confidence to overcome anything that might. That little voice in your head that might make you feel like you're not good enough. [00:47:29] Speaker B: It's mostly just a fear of failure. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:35] Speaker B: But. [00:47:36] Speaker A: But it still takes, you know, as an introvert myself, I think. I think it. It takes an element of not fooling yourself, but, like, almost ignoring the fact that I shouldn't be in this position, but I am. Right? So I'm gonna figure it out. Right. Again. I'm gonna fail. [00:47:57] Speaker B: Like, the only option is to succeed. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I think if you put me in a position, you know, to. To answer a complex question on some game show, I'd be like. And just fall to pieces because I wouldn't be smart enough. But you put me in that position to talk about, you know, how a scripting system works or how this game plays. I'm like, yeah, no, I can, you know, I can Overcome that part of me that's like, you won't do this. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:23] Speaker A: I mean, that's testament to who we are. [00:48:25] Speaker B: And, and I will say, like, I never would have guessed, I would never would have pegged you for an introvert from different presentations. [00:48:34] Speaker A: I, I, I think there's an element of faking it, you know, I think, I think you get better at compartmentalizing where that, in that introvertness kind of gets the better of you and when it doesn't and it can't. [00:48:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I know for me, like, these days, whether it was, you know, a meeting with, you know, people who make four times my salary or whether I'm getting on stage for 20 bucks. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Like, now I have this, like, okay, I've done this before. Before I've been here. Nothing catastrophic happened. Like, even the worst gig I ever had still ended. And then I played another show after that, and, you know, even the most awkward, you know, conversation I've had in a meeting with important people has ended. And, you know, we got to keep going. [00:49:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:26] Speaker B: From there and that kind of stuff. I think that's a good. It's hard to have that mentality when you're first doing something like that. [00:49:32] Speaker A: Sure. [00:49:33] Speaker B: But I feel like, especially for, you know, people that struggle with confidence and extroversion and all that kind of stuff, like, if you kind of approach from that angle, I feel like it kind of makes things easier a little bit. Like, yeah, you know, we played a song and nobody died, so I think we can play another one. [00:49:54] Speaker A: Yes, I agree. Yeah. And, you know, I, I have the double whammy of being British. So, like, catastrophizing is, like, in our DNA, and so I hope British people agree with me. I think that's true. So, yeah, that sort of double no comment. For me, that double whammy of, you know, being in a position where you're like, oh, man. Yeah, this could fail spectacularly. But then getting through it and, you know, it does build. [00:50:19] Speaker B: I'm just glad I'm not a doctor because then I couldn't say that. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Yes, I would agree. At the end of the day, we're not saving lives, and we're not. Yeah, exactly. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. [00:50:27] Speaker A: No, I love that analogy. I think that's a really interesting way you, you know, the performing at a show or being in a big director's meeting. Right. I think the element of kind of showing up and, you know, being confident in what, you know, and putting the worst side of you aside and being able to kind of do the do the job you need to do in that moment, I think is a wonderful allegory for, you know, how. I mean, they're both very creative fields, but, you know, how who you are as a person shows up in both those locations, which. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:50:57] Speaker A: Yeah. It's fascinating. So, yeah, we're kind of winding this down. What you mentioned, level design is something you kind of aspire to do, and, you know, clearly it connects well with your character and who you are as a person. What would you. What would you say is the biggest challenge for you in terms of being that kind of, you know, shifting into that role? Is it just the technical side? Is it just, you know, the doing it or, you know, is it. What would you. What do you kind of say is the biggest challenge there? [00:51:37] Speaker B: Sorry, can you give me the question one more time? [00:51:39] Speaker A: It was a slightly confusing question. You're considering kind of shifting into a different form of game dev. Right. From the kind of tools testing into level design. Like, what's the. What's the biggest challenge you find there in terms of making that shift? [00:51:52] Speaker B: Gotcha. Yeah. I feel like the. The biggest challenge from going from QA to any kind of design is that, like, QA is, like, reactive by design, whereas, I mean, there is a level of creativity that you can achieve with that. But ultimately, you're just. You're looking at a thing and pointing out the flaws and sending it back. [00:52:17] Speaker A: Y. [00:52:18] Speaker B: Rather than being the person creating the flaws that need to be sent back. Yeah. So I think that's a big part of it. And another thing I struggle with for a bit was that if you're already doing QA somewhere, generally the company kind of wants you to stay there. So, you know, if you. If you're happy with qa, that's fantastic. I was always jealous of those folks. I've never. I've always, you know, been the kind of person that's looking ahead at the next thing that I want to achieve. So basically finding the motivation to, you know, after working eight hours, to go and spend another three or four teaching myself something. [00:53:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:07] Speaker B: You know, whether it's YouTube University or just, you know, plowing through brick walls with my head. Yeah. To try to figure out stuff. I think that was probably the biggest thing was, you know, I've spent eight hours. My brain is tired, maybe my body's tired, but, you know, how bad do I want this thing? And maybe you can relate to this, but I felt like I kind of started behind because I came to the industry so late. You know, like, I was Working with kids that were 18 when I started and I was 25, 26, something like that. [00:53:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:53:44] Speaker B: And so I was like, man, I have like six years to make up for as fast as possible. So, I mean, I think, I guess I'm probably my. My biggest enemy in that. That sense. I feel like most people are, you know. [00:53:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:00] Speaker B: Just give myself kind of semi unreasonable deadlines. But I feel like that's also how. How I just operate in general. I don't know. I was about to say that how I operate best, but that's probably not true. [00:54:15] Speaker A: Your default state. [00:54:16] Speaker B: So. Yeah, yeah, the challenge would be finding the motivation, getting out of my own way and, you know, giving myself a certain level of patience and forgiveness to. To just keep trying. And that kind of goes back to the sort of creative stuff like, you know, you have to try something and, you know, make it to see how it. To see if it works or not. And then, yeah, you know, okay, that, you know, this thing worked, but that thing didn't. So we just have to go back and fix that thing. You know, it's nobody's fault. [00:54:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:54:52] Speaker B: Or anything like that. You know, you just keep plowing ahead. [00:54:55] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. And I think, to me, at least in this conversation, it's quite apparent that level design is the perfect fit for you, who you are as a person. Like the way I talk about it. Yeah. It does feel like, you know, back. You know, back from doing it ad hoc in timesplitters to the way it sort of relates to making music and, you know, and what you've. What you learn from being a tools tester and it certainly feels like a good fit. So. Yeah. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:55:22] Speaker A: Well, thank you, sir. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Great conversation. [00:55:26] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. This is fun. [00:55:27] Speaker A: Yeah, Agreed. Yeah. Thank you. And yeah, good luck moving forward. And you as well. Thank you.