Dev to Dev S01E11 - Landon Hood

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi. Hi. [00:00:00] Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of Dev to Dev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. I'm Alex Solman, ready for another exciting conversation with a former friend and or former colleague and friend? I sometimes get that the wrong way around. Former colleague and friend. Landon. Landon, would you like to introduce yourself? [00:00:19] Speaker A: Hey, it's nice to meet you all. I'm Landon Hood, former senior producer at Zenimax Online Studios, current franchise producer at Blizzard Entertainment. [00:00:28] Speaker B: Yay. Thank you for your time. Len. I'm excited to dig into this conversation. We've worked together before, but we sort of know each other a little bit and I'm excited to dig into your history even more and get to know you even further. So I like to kick this off with my favorite first question. What first inspired you about video games? [00:00:48] Speaker A: Honestly, it was, you know, it's ironic where I ended up at Blizzard because it all kind of started back at World of Warcraft. I used to compete at a very high level in World of Warcraft, world first rating and things like that. And that's become a 20 year addiction that has now turned into a career. But I associate a lot of like getting people together for raids at night and telling them what potions to bring and everything. I associate a lot of that to the producer element of kind of where I fit in my role in, in the industry, which is kind of using that $15 a month for something good, I suppose. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Well, you, you're already cut into the heart of what this podcast is all about, Landon. Like how you as a gamer, how you as a developer and how you as a human overlap. So, so w been, you know, it's kind of the thing that, that really got you going. When did you start playing? [00:01:35] Speaker A: Well, I started in 2004. I was probably around eighth grade. And you know, it's, it's a, it's a very human game. It's a very. It like taught me how to talk to people, it taught me how to kind of interact with strangers. It improved my, like, public speaking and things like that. And there was just this challenge. I've met lifelong friends through it and I just thought that if a game can do that, that's something that I want to be a part of because it's immensely powerful. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Love that. Okay, so was that, so that's sort of the game that comes to mind first. Was that the first game you played? Were there any other sort of consoles or PC games that you played before that? [00:02:12] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Too many to count. Currently tracking 980 games on Steam right now. I think at the age of 16, I got a job at GameStop because I tried to figure out how I could play games the cheapest. And it turned out working at GameStop will do that. That was during the Xbox 360 era. The Wii had just come out and I have played every single Xbox game because they let you rent them for three days. So I started at A and worked my way all the way down to Z. We've got the Barbie games, the Burger king, sneak king. Every 360 game I have played for at least two hours. So I just am enamored by video games and the escape they provide and the challenges that they bring. So I am an admirer of video games. [00:02:57] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, so, so a big part of your life then. So since you were young, they've kind of always been a big part. [00:03:02] Speaker A: Massive part. I've got a Sega Genesis over there where it all started, with Echo still in it. PlayStation 1 is where it started to evolve and I think PlayStation 2 is where it took off. I'll stand by. I Love, love the PlayStation 2 is one of the top tier consoles. Love it, love it. [00:03:17] Speaker B: So, so where did, where did you grow up? [00:03:21] Speaker A: So I grew up in Maryland. I've been here since I was about 6 years old. Parents were in the Air Force, so I moved around as a kid. But we started our journey at second grade about 2001 in Maryland. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Okay, and do you have any siblings or any other family members that were gamers? [00:03:43] Speaker A: No, actually my oldest sister was not into that. She was into kind of school, sports and things of that nature. My youngest, she 2002, so her generation came up with more social media and things like that. And then the one younger than me, I've got five sisters. The one younger than me kind of took the turn into gaming, started really enjoying like the Switch and things like that. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Got it. Okay, so. So you were kind of for a while, then you were kind of the main gamer in the house. [00:04:12] Speaker A: Definitely the main gamer in the house. Yeah. My dad was big enjoyer of the Mist series. Pretty much any Cyan World games. I have, you know, like deep memories of sitting on his lap as a kid, him getting like 99% of the puzzle solved and then being like, Landon, click this thing and then I click it. And he's like, you solved the puzzle. And so that's like deep awesome childhood memories of like my dad and I playing Riven or, you know, House of the seventh Guest, those kind of things. [00:04:39] Speaker B: Got it right. So there's old, so early CD ROM games and. [00:04:42] Speaker A: Absolutely, that's cool. [00:04:45] Speaker B: And then what about when you. When you went to school, you know, high school, were there many gamers around you? Do you have gaming community or. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Surprisingly not. I grew up in Calvert county, which is Southern Maryland. They're big into like, football hunting, that kind of stuff. I think World of Warcraft was introduced to me through a group of friends that I hung out with of like, hey, there's this game in beta. It's going to change everything. You really need to try it. Here's this code. Go and go and do that. Gaming was still kind of one of those things you kept to yourself back then. As. As weirdly as that sound, you didn't really speak openly about playing World of Warcra or anything. And then later towards high school, you know, I graduated 2010. So around that like, era of like 2008, it started to become more popular, more mainstream. Things like Grand Theft Auto started taking off a little bit more, Call of Duty got more popular, etc. And it became more of a mainstay that folks were talking about. But there wasn't a whole lot of kind of gaming to be had. A lot of my friends were global because I played World of Warcraft. So, you know, I had a friend in San Francisco, friend in Florida, all over the country, and that's where I spent much of my evenings when I wasn't playing sports. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Interesting. So. So kind of a community and friend base that was spread out and less. Less centralized around. Around where you live because of. Wow. And because of that kind of online gaming. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I did grow up with a lot of locals. I mean, we had like, we had like the core group. Right. That every. I feel like every kind of kid grows up with. But most of the time we were online. Online or at the skate park. [00:06:19] Speaker B: Nice, nice. And at any point in that period, did you think that you could make video games or did you just enjoy playing them? [00:06:29] Speaker A: I enjoyed playing them. I think the, the kind of younger version of me always looked at it as if I were to approach video games, I'd have to learn how to program. And it always seemed like a very daunting task that I had tried several times and could never get over the hurdle of. It really kind of kicked in when I went into community college and started to kind of really like, apply myself to like, that avenue of like, oh, well, maybe this is a realistic thing to pursue. But before then, it was all surprisingly, cars and the military were kind of the first options. And Then the video game was the fallback. [00:07:08] Speaker B: Interesting. Okay, so. So you went through, you know, school and high school, and then you went to. Is it Anne Arundel Community College? [00:07:15] Speaker A: Anne Arundel, yeah. I, I had a career track in high school to go through VO Tech, which was they, they take you out of school for four periods. You go and you can work on a vocational skill, whether it's like 3D or welding. I did auto mechanics, so I love working on cars, I love working on motorcycles. I went and changed oil in cars and stuff like that for four periods, and that was going to be my track. I was going to learn how to paint cars. I did airbrushing back in the day and I would build cars alongside my friend and we had this whole thing lined up to go to this school. I contacted the curriculum developer for the school and I was like, hey, you know, when, when am I going to start learning how to paint cars? And they were like, oh, well, yeah, you're going to be here for two years and it's only going to be a two week course out of those two years that you're going to learn to paint cars. And it's like, well, then what the hell am I going to be doing for the rest of the two years? And they were like, oh, collision repair, popping dents and stuff, replacing fiberglass and all that. And I was like, well, that doesn't appeal to me. And so I kind of spoke to my mom and I was like, hey, what's the best avenue? Like, what if I'm having doubts about this? And my mom was like, well, go around to local shops and ask them how they feel about their job, you know, and ask them what they did. And I was like, all right, great. So I went to like six different shops and unanimously, they were like, stay the hell away. They were like, you don't want anything. They were like, your hands are always going to be dirty. There's fumes everywhere. Like, it was not a great time. And I remember going back to my mom and being like, I don't think this is gonna work out. And we'd already kind of paid the fees and everything, unfortunately. And my mom was like, if you're not feeling it, you're not feeling it. And so we kind of went a different route. Attempted to join the military, and I am deaf in my left ear, which disqualified me, unfortunately. And then that's where the situation of like, well, what am I going to do now? I was a store manager at a GameStop, you know, and it's like, this isn't going to get me very far. I need to do something else. And so went back to or I started college and kind of found my way once I began there. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Right. And so, so the college, the college course kind of led you in the game development direction or aspects of that wildly. [00:09:28] Speaker A: I had initially started for graphic design and I think, you know, I do what Most kids at 19 do is compare themselves to others. And I started to kind of get in my own head of like, well, maybe I don't have what it takes to be a great graphic designer. So I joined the game art and design curriculum when I started the college. The community college as a whole is directly responsible for my entire career, specifically because I took a 2D design class where my professor pulled me aside after class and was like, hey, enjoy personality, enjoy working with you. Would you have any interest in working for the college? It will help pay for your education and everything like that. And you'll be my gallery assistant. And it sounded amazing and she was a total badass. And I was like, yes, I would love to do that. And it involved building like a print screen studio in one of the upstairs classrooms. It involved hanging art galleries when national juried art galleries and things like that came in and stuff like that. So that got me a little more invested in the college. And then while I was there, the game development curriculum was just starting to kind of get like we only had like two cintiqs. Like the lab was not developed, the curriculum was not really fully fleshed out. I was very tumultuous. We were UDK One day we were unity another day we were unreal one more day. Then we were like, let's start in game maker, et cetera. So it was all over the place. And that's where I kind of said, well, like, screw it, I'm going to start the game development club. So I founded the game development club at the college and tried to kind of bring people around me that were just as passionate as I were so that we could kind of share in that. Because I realized that a lot of these people, they would go home and that was all they did. And that passion was so infectious that I wanted to be around that. And so making that club was really kind of vital because we would bring in people from the industries, people from like old day Bethesda, people from Pure Bang Games or Breakaway and do like portfolio reviews or talks and things like that. And we were funded. So we went to GDC one year and stuff like that. It was a really amazing experience which Kind of led to a job during one kind of fateful art show. [00:11:42] Speaker B: Wow, that's such a great story. So it sounds like it was the perfect place to kind of understand the people that make video games, the technology that makes video games. And almost sounds like the process of making video games in many ways. You kind of found that yourself. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I think what I did, you know, like, if I could kind of my younger me go back and kind of change, it would be to find more of a focus. I think I did the Master of all, or Jack of all, but Master of none. And I think that's why I make a great producer, is because I kind of sat alongside these incredibly passionate people. I learned how the gears kind of changed and ticked and everything and how it all kind of fit together. But I never did it quite as amazingly as all these other talented people. I did it okay. Don't want to push myself down too much, but understanding how that all kind of slotted into place allowed me to manage it more. So it's like, okay, I see what you're doing here. That's kind of like a puzzle. Here's some efficiencies that I found that could maybe make that a little bit better. And that's how, like, my job kind of started. I entered. Well, let me put it this way. My boss forced me to enter an art show at the community college. I told her I didn't want to be a part of it because I didn't care for my art, like, being on, I didn't think it was good enough. She said if I didn't do it, she would fire me. And so I. I said, all right, fair point. So I submitted three of my screen prints to the college art show. There were, like, 480 applicants. My boss at the time brought in a gentleman named Carlson Bull, who was a head of this studio called Bully Entertainment. So she brought in Carlson Bull specifically because he had a game company, and she wanted him and I to cross paths. That was the whole reason she had. I mean, he was also a very talented individual, very artful eye, and a great juror as well. But she knew that, like, he had a correspondence or, like, there could have been a nice little relationship to be formed there. And So I entered 480 applicants. All three of my pieces got selected. Of those 480 applicants, 192, I think, were chosen, and then 10 were selected to be purchased by the college. One of my art pieces was purchased by the college, and while he was selecting the art and stuff, I hadn't never told him my name, but I was kind of in there just facilitating the art, making sure nothing went missing and all that, and just kind of having casual conversations. So there wasn't like, a bias at play when he selected the work. And then afterwards, I went up to her and I was like, I got in and a piece got purchased, and she's like, great, here's this resume I printed for you. Go hand this to him right now and tell him that you're amazing. And I was like. She's like, if you don't, I'll fire you. I was like, all right, all right, Sounds good. So I went up to Carlson, and I was like, hey, man. I was the guy in the gallery. We spoke, you know, you actually ended up picking all of my work. He was like, what? That's amazing. And it's like, here's my resume. And he's like, when can you start? And so I got hired as a production assistant at Bully, and my boss comes up afterwards and says, see, now I don't have to fire you. You could just quit and go start your career. And that's how it all began. [00:14:48] Speaker B: Holy. I'm emotional, man. That's an amazing story. That teacher obviously saw something in you, like, right from start. [00:14:55] Speaker A: It seems like I'm eternally grateful. Her name's Lindsay McCullough, and she's, you know, it's like that butterfly effect. You meet that one person, and then your life changes forever. The support that she showed was just on a galactic level of like, I wish everybody in the world had someone that looked out for them the way that she looked out for me. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's unbelievable. But it also sounds like that you grabbed that opportunity with both hands, Right? But you say you kind of. You kind of recognize that you could see greatness in other folks and help them be better, which it sounds like, which, like you said, is a very producer y kind of role, but also takes a lot of humility and humbleness on your part. [00:15:34] Speaker A: Right? [00:15:34] Speaker B: At a young age, I don't think I would have been that humble or, you know, at that age. That's incredibly impressive. [00:15:41] Speaker A: Well, I think humble, I think back in the day, I thought to myself I was unstoppable. So, you know, coming in as the production assistant, I was supposed to fill a lot of the crap cracks. Like, if they needed a texture done, I could do some quick texturing. If they needed a model, I could, like, I could, you know, retopologize a model or something like that. I could kind of fill in these creative cracks. But what ended up happening was like this modeler would say, like, oh, yeah, this thing would take like six weeks for me to do. And I'd kind of like squint an eye at it and be like, I don't think so. And then this other guy would say, oh, yeah, this would take like four weeks to do. And then I'd go to the CEO and I was like, I don't think these things should be taking this long. That's why these projects are so. And he's like, what do you mean? And I started kind of like piecing together, like, if he did this here, then that would fall into place here and then it would work here. He kind of. About four weeks into Bully, he was like, well, you kind of have a knack for like putting these things in the row, don't you? And I was like, I don't know, but I'm seeing like, weird inconsistencies. And he goes, what do you want to do? Just try being a producer? And I was like, well, I've never thought about it, but I guess. And he's like, cool, here's a DreamWorks project. It was just like trial by fire. You either going to sink or swim. And that's kind of what led to the. The whole career in producing. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. So, yeah, I mean, I can imagine when he walked into Bully after that experience, you had the window sales like you said you were. You were very comfortable, you know, not cocky. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you're young. Right. [00:17:15] Speaker B: And there's going to be a little bit of that. But you obviously had, you know, a heck of an on ramp. Right. That sort of. That sort of. You came in with the wind behind you, I think. And that's. That's incredible. And so. So you kind of went from. From that production assistant to. I mean, it's creative producer. And creative producer. Yeah. Is kind of what you have on LinkedIn. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah, creative producer has kind of been the flow throughout my career of just. We worked in VR, AR mixed reality. I've got like a prototype gear VR sitting behind me. Like, we did VR virtual reality when it kind of just on its, you know, Facebook hadn't been involved yet. We had a DK1 and things. So we were making these really cool, cutting edge at the time kind of experiences and we were subcontractors, so we worked a lot primarily with DreamWorks. So, like, the first project that I worked on was called Slay Flight School and kids could earn their sleigh flight certificate. So they. They Had a certificate for flying the Santa's sleigh. And this was a game that was installed at Mall of America. They had this big display set up where kids could go in and meet Santa and meet all these DreamWorks characters. And while they waited in line, there were these iPads kind of set up down the aisle that all the kids could play. And then at the end, they would print your certificate on a piece of paper and hand it out to the kids to color in as their official pilots after that. And that was like a really cool jumping off point to be like, man, this is. And they're not like state of the art games or anything like that. It was basically that Subway Run style of a game. But it was delightful. I got to work with DreamWorks artists, I got to work with DreamWorks assets. And then that just kind of evolved into like Disney and then Marvel and NASA and all these other great companies that I had been part of. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Right. And all kind of interesting, different, varied small projects. I would imagine that gave you a lot of good experience and a lot of good opportunities to kind of grow. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. I think as a producer, you want to try to find the rhythm. I think, you know, you work at a game company, a lot of times production works the same. You've got the concept, then you've got your pre production, then you've got your production, your development that runs alongside of that. Then you're kind of alpha beta release candidate, et cetera. Every project at Bully was entirely different. One day we're working on an augmented reality project that kids can scan toothbrushes and get stickers of Disney characters called Disney Magic Timer. The next day we're working on this Navy Federal Credit Union app that teaches kids how to save money by building playgrounds. The next day, it's virtual reality piece where you sit inside of a Ford Mustang and you put the headset on and it puts you on Mars, but you're still in the Mustang. Like, you know, like weird stuff like that. So there I was never able to find the rhythm. So it was always kind of a trial of like, learn how all these different things function together and like, try to make order to all the chaos. Because it was a lot of chaos. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds like it, but yeah, great opportunity to sort of, you know, cut your teeth at the process of making games, whatever the format, whatever the platform, you know, so. So you were there for about a year or just about a year and a half maybe, and then you moved on to MAD Studios. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, Bully Entertainment kind of was project to project as. As a lot of agencies tend to be back in the day. I don't know if they are now, but really unfortunate. One of our clients, MAD Studios, we had done a interesting birthday card project for them and they really liked. So I was producer account manager and then I helped kind of design the games as well. And I was the account manager for the MAD Studios project. And there was kind of writing on the wall that Bully was heading in an unfortunate way. And they reached out and said, we'd love to bring you aboard over here. Which was an opportunity that I kind of didn't want to pass up. I think at that point I was still kind of in my like, I'm invincible phase where, you know, I did have maybe a little bit of a high head on my shoulders. And I went over to Fort Lauderdale. So it was the first time I've ever relocated for a job. And I was going to kind of head up their innovations department. I was going to help them get more into like that AR VR space. Whereas they were more traditional marketing. They did like go phone cards was their main, like they designed these GoFo cards and that kept the studio and they just kind of did branding for fun. And unfortunately they didn't really want to invest in what it would take. I came to the studio, they were like, all right, like, what do we need? I was like, you know, at least like maybe two modelers, a programmer, if not two, a game designer would be great. And I kind of gave them a little bit of a list of like a small, tight knit team that would likely be able to pull this off. They said, great, we're gonna give you this guy that has one year of light 3D experience. And it was like, what do I do with that? You know? And so I think MAD Studios kind of devolved into just me coming in and learning Linda Linda educational videos and doing small management for web projects and things. And then we did a couple of VR projects. I think they were fun. We did1 for HBO, Miami, Children's Health Network and then one for this art scene that happens in Miami. But it just wasn't, wasn't fulfilling. It didn't feel like the direction I wanted to go. And I despised Florida. It was so hot. And it was just, it was not my vibe. So I. It was the first time. My girlfriend at the time and I like, she moved down there with me. Like we were homesick. So it was kind of a culmination of just we need to go home. And I consider that Kind of like my purse. I wouldn't say, like, failure, but like my first low point of, like, that's the pivotal point that kind of grounded me to, like, you're not invincible. You're not going to take over the world. Like, there's a reality out there and you need to kind of level set and reorient yourself. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Right. And then, of course, you had all that. That pressure of having moved down there with your girlfriend and then it not working out and moving back. And that's. I think that's a part of Game Dev that, you know, isn't always recognized, is the sort of impact it has on people around you. [00:23:53] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:53] Speaker B: When you have these creative projects, sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail. [00:23:56] Speaker A: Right. [00:23:57] Speaker B: And that can be. That can be rough. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I think we knew it was time to go home when. So I live in Glen Burnie. My family has lived here for a while. There's this thing here called Mission Barbecue. It's a fast food, if you will, kind of barbecue joint. It's not the best in the world, but it's a good barbecue establishment. And I used to eat there a lot. When I was in Maryland, I learned that they had a Mission Barbecue an hour away from where we were living in Fort Lauderdale. We go there and I start to cry because it just felt like home. Like everything in it was the same, the decorations and everything. And it was just like this. This immense homesickness took over me and it was like, yeah, we gotta leave. So I actually. I went to the. The CEO and I was like, hey, I don't think this is working out. I think that, you know, we have two different paths, that you were expecting one thing, I was expecting one thing, and neither of us are getting that. That. So, you know, I think I'm gonna get out of your hair. And they were like, we'll. We'll pay a severance, help get you back home. And then that's kind of how I fell back to Maryland. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Wow. Okay, nice. [00:25:10] Speaker A: That's. [00:25:11] Speaker B: That's a nice story that it kind of, you know, it's obviously a difficult decision for you to make, but the company kind of supported you and, you know, and helped you. And so. So that brings you back to. To Maryland and. And you sort of founded your own little place for a while. [00:25:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been a weird journey. So I went back to the college because I never actually completed my degree. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Oh, right, because you left to go to Bully. [00:25:37] Speaker A: I actually left before I was able to finish the degree. Which is funny because, like, I give talks at the college all the time. And they have videos of me on the game development page of, like, look at our alumni and their stories. And I was like, you know, I didn't graduate, right? They're like, yeah, that's what community college is about. But I kind of went back for just a little bit just to kind of occupy my time. It was more just to get myself back on my feet. I was working at a GameStop again because they're, you know, it's easy to just go back to what I was good at. You know, it was retail. And then took some more classes and then met a couple of guys there who had been a part of the game development club when I was first there. And I was like, let's. Let's make something, man. Like, let's. You know, And I tried to kind of pull together a strong group as I saw it, and we developed one and a half games. I like to say we had relics of Raw, which we all came together. It was a little Flappy Bird clone. We tried to start small, you know, we had all these grandiose ideas, and it was like, let's make a Flappy Bird clone just to see if this would work out. And we ended up doing that. You know, some personalities got in the way, unfortunately, on the second game, you know, one person was really adamant on working on one thing, another person, and the group kind of as a whole was really adamant on, like, working on the thing that was already in progress. And so that kind of developed a little bit of a chasm. But we. We got ships and stuff into a prototypable state where we were able to go to East Coast Game Convention and, like, present it to Unreal. This was around East Coast Game Convention. They were showing off Unreal 4 for, like, the first time. There were people that had developed the engine and everything, and we were able to actually get them to follow us on Twitter. They didn't lead to anything, but it was like, yo, Unreal's following us on Twitter. That's Unreal. That's so cool. And we felt really good, but it ended up kind of going separate ways. One guy made a really great game, but he was very set on making that game. And so he went off and kind of did that on his own. And that was our developer. So from there we were kind of like, can't really find another developer after trying to find one. And so we just kind of let that dissolve and life started kind of picking back up at that point. But it was. It was a nice kind of put down. I had applied for a job at a cannabis dispensary that hadn't opened yet. And I went in and kind of leveraged my project management skills to say, like, hey, you know, you guys don't have a logo. I can help you with that. You guys don't have, like, go to market. I can help you with that. We don't have any, like, employees yet. I can help kind of put those ducks in a row. And that's when I became their first bud tender. And about a weekend, the guy that hired me ended up getting fired. And then the owner was like, well, I don't know what I'm gonna do now. And I was like, well, how hard could it be? I did not consume cannabis. I was not a cannabis user. So it was all just kind of like, let's do it. And I became the general manager and helped open the doors on time. And I ran it for about eight months, and it was a really rewarding experience. We developed staff, we had all these different campaigns that we were running, educational classes, all that kind of stuff. And the owner, unfortunately, was under an FBI investigation. So once that all kind of played out, I was like, I'm out. I don't. Wiping my hands of all of this. I did not know that that was happening. And it was just something that I didn't want to tie myself to. And it was about that time that Carlson, the guy who started my kind of career, gave me a call and was like, hey, I'm looking to restart Bully Entertainment, and I need your help. What you doing? That became kind of bully V2. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Okay. So you end up back at. Back at sort of like you say, Bully version two for. For a while then. Yeah, almost. Almost. You know, two and a half, three years. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:40] Speaker B: Doing the same kind of work. Same kind of. Same. [00:29:42] Speaker A: Same kind of stuff. A little bit more creative liberty this time around. A lot more respect. You know, I look at Carlson as one of my other kind of mentors. I think, like, he kind of pushed me to get into uncomfortable territory as, like, a boss. He was an incredibly empathetic CEO. Like, he, you know, he was head of this company, but he was also, like, very invested in the projects, very invested in the clients. And it was usually him and I at a studio with a development team overseas in Moldova. So, you know, we were always together. We were always talking about these projects when it was coming in. So it was a really great relationship. And I think he kind of helped pick me up and get me into a good spot. And he Cares a lot about me. I care a lot about him. So it was a really awesome relationship to be able to have him bring me back and restart this great thing that I was just starting my career. A part of. [00:30:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's incredible. And so you sort of create a producer doing the similar. [00:30:40] Speaker A: Producing similar. Yeah, absolutely. Account management. I did a lot of the account management. So a lot of like facilitating the clients, you know, each person. We had like two producers, you know, that were attached to different projects and we were all doing really awesome things. We did a game for a company called Planet 3 that never got off the ground, but they were like teaching kids environmental science in a gamified way, which was really cool. It would go on like their laptops at school and they could track tornado data or see how hurricanes come together and determine how they might mitigate risk for incoming hurricanes. Like, do you send the boats off to sea or do you batten down the hatches? That kind of stuff. So worked on a lot of really fulfilling projects. Some hologram stuff. We did more AR things. We did a comic book for Deloitte. You could read the comic and then we did two comic books actually for Deloitte and you could read it and then nar bring things to life. And that evolved into a NASA project, which was the First Woman, which is a graphic novel series that we made for NASA about the first female led mission back to the moon for the Artemis mission, which unfortunately went a different way. But that was a really rewarding graphic novel and stuff like that. So did a lot of really, really kick ass projects at Bully. [00:31:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds amazing. It sounds so diverse. It sounds like you got such a diverse experience of developing projects. Right. From almost all aspects of it, by the sounds of it. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Nothing was ever the same. You know, I did voice acting for a character named Koa for game pitch for a cartoon series on Netflix. Like we did websites for GE hologram stuff for Volvo animation projects. Got to work with Kevin Bacon for like a mobile ar. Like you pull this phone out of a box and then you scan the thing and then this AR thing comes to life and for some reason Kevin Bacon's narrating it. It's just a bunch of stuff like that. It was, it was cool. It was never the same. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so, so like I said there for almost two, almost three years. And then you, you move on to the Zen Max online studios, the Zos. So how did that transition happen? [00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you know, things never being the same come with an immense amount of stress and chaos and not knowing where the next project's coming and not knowing, like, you know, a lot of late nights, spent a lot of like hectic. If this doesn't get done, you know, the company's at risk. So it was always frantic and it was always 100 miles an hour at Bully. I loved it, but I got exhausted by it. So it became a kind of a turning. Another turning point for me of like, well, what am I doing with my career? Like, do I. Am I getting fulfillment out of this job because of just how constant it is? And, you know, I've been working remote with bully since like 2018. So way before the lockdown, Carlson and I went through the lockdown together as well. But, you know, I had always been working him and I. So something that I kind of yearned for was like a studio full of people of like mindedness. Like, Carlsen didn't play games. He. It was Bully. It was only Bully with Carlson and his family, of course. But it was hard to be like, you know, I played this one game and for him to be like, oh, sick or, you know, anything like that. So. And that's not to like diminish him in any way. It's more just like trying to find like a younger person that I could really kind of jive with and talk about games or magic, the gathering or whatever my hobby was at the time, you know. So I started kind of looking around. I was working at Bully and I actually started a tattoo apprenticeship in my evenings. I went to a local shop, I brought in my portfolio and I said, hey, look, you know, I'm interested in making this like career change. I'm 30 years old, I have a mortgage, but I want to do this in my spare time to potentially transition over. So I did that for about six months, give or take. And I got to the year mark and they were like, we want to get you started full time, have you tattoo and walk ins. We need you to sign a five year exclusive contract with us where you can't go to any other shop top. We're going to take 60% of everything that you make and then we're going to. You're going to be a 1099, basically. And so I kind of knew that there was like a reality to tattooing that like, you know, you're not going to get the benefits, you're not going to be the W2, you're going to have to do all your own kind of money work and things like that. And just the idea of being attached to that place for, for five years. There were some other stipulations that I'm kind of keeping out, but like, it just didn't seem like an appealing deal. So I was kind of bummed out and I determined that like, maybe, you know, that wasn't the door that I needed to open for myself. So I went ahead and closed it. I was a little bummed out, but, you know, I was continuing my job at Bully. And about a week after I turned down the full time tattooing, ZeniMax reached out to me and they were like, hey you, you applied like six months ago. Are you still interested? And I was like, hell yeah. And that's where they kind of pulled me aboard as the integrated producer, the only integrated producer Z has ever had. So the idea was I was attached to the video media arts and design team. I was under production, but attached to these three separate teams that two other producers were facilitating, Mike Ray and Corey Sung. Mike Ray ended up going to a different team and then Corey ended up going to a different team and then I took over full time for them. Right. [00:36:27] Speaker B: And that's like you say the only integrated producer at ZeniMax. That's an unusual role. Like, how did that role come about? [00:36:35] Speaker A: Yeah, there was the creative director at the time, Steven Harris. He came from an agency background as well. And I think he wanted to bring in someone with a multimedia background, someone with an agency background. I think that was like specifically the irony of me getting a role at Zos was I was coming into this AAA game company being like, I'm finally escaping the grind and hustle and scariness of this agency. And then I got to the team and they were like, we want to run this like an agency. It's just like, no. So I think it was just producer with a fancy tag at the beginning. But I was just producing for one of the very talented teams at Zos basically. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Right. And helping to kind of facilitate, you know, the various work they were doing. And it sounds like a similar role, you know, trying to, trying to help the great people do great stuff and, and, but, but you've got such a diverse skill set. It feels like there was a lot of opportunity for you to do lots of different things. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think that really kind of came to light when Steven quit kind of unexpectedly. He got a really great role and left, which kind of created this void of creative directors where the team itself was without a creative director and without a lead for some of the teams. One of the leads just transitioned over the unannounced project and we were getting a new lead up to speed. There was a principal video who wasn't quite the lead just yet, and then there was a senior designer who, like, wasn't the lead of design. So three teams, no lead myself, and then directors around us, like, if you need any support, kind of let me know. And that's where I kind of put on my light creative director hat to start helping facilitate content closer with brand. Starting to kind of get them a little bit ahead of themselves to say, like, are we thinking about these things? Are we looking at what the community is thinking about for these trailers? Have we, you know, done AB testing for our thumbnails and these kind of things to try and kind of push what a creative director would have been pushing at that time? So we went about a year and a half without a creative director. All projects maintained their timeline. So we actually kind of increased the amount of work that we were producing without a creative director. And then they brought in a gentleman named Kai Fang, who was the global marketing director for Hasbro. He came in and then he quit two weeks later. We went right back to looking for another creative director. In that time, they had promoted me to senior producer. We had promoted the principal to the lead, we had promoted the senior graphic designer to lead, and then we, we had fully brought on the media arts person to lead as well. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Got it. [00:39:28] Speaker A: And I mean, I tell you, like, in a time like that, with the team that I had, it was such a blessing because, like, there's some seriously badass folks on the creative services side and they were, you know, able to help take the reins with me and be incredibly empathetic to the situation. We just, we got done. [00:39:45] Speaker B: That's cool. And the creative services layer, I think, is one that's not very well known in the industry, outside of the industry. So walk me through what, you know, what your sort of general responsibilities were and what parts of the projects you were focused on. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, the unsung heroes. I like to think that we are, you know, I think for the longest time, even a lot of the folks at the studios didn't even realize that our videos were coming from inside the house. We, you know, the shots that you see on Collector edition box set, these really cool coins you get in your collector's editions, the plushies that come out, the T shirts that you wear, the amazing cinematic trailers, the awesome key art, the roadmaps for the content that's coming out, that's all creative services. We do everything creative, media related or adjacent to the game that we're attached to. So in Elder Scrolls case, you know, I designed a jacket, for example, which was really cool. It's the bomber jacket. On the Elder Scrolls website, we designed like, Doom, Doom and ESO crossover images for key art for, like, Doom anniversaries. We did a lot of the merch and the entire, like, branding style guide for the 10th anniversary for Elder Scrolls Online. And that whole style and the event that happened in Amsterdam was all run and championed by the amazing people at Creative Services. [00:41:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, a very diverse sort of remit, you know, from video editing to, you know, clothing to events to, you know, all kinds of community stuff. It's. It's such an. It sounds to me like a perfect role for you given, you know, given the sort of diverse roles and very flexible roles you've had before. [00:41:33] Speaker A: It's. It's. I'm very grateful to have the privilege that I had working at Zos. I think that's why I'm so tragically sad that it's over. Because my mom was the creative director for cms, which is the center for Medicaid Medicare Services. So incredibly talented creative director. And I'm kind of doing what she's doing, but just video game focused. So I kind of took the passion of my mom and my dad. My dad was combat cam, so he did like video and videography and then he taught course development at a defense information school and stuff like that. So I'm taking all those aspects that I've been around unknowingly my whole life and then just applying it to the video game world. So it was a chance thing that it happened because it wasn't something that I was doing. Creative Media wasn't like the focus at Bully or these other places. But once I got to Zos, it was kind of like, yeah, this is it. Like this, like watching a cinematic come to life, the high cinematics, and knowing that the people that worked on this worked on loved ones and robots and level up. And it's like it was like such a fulfilling experience to be alongside of that and to also be able to just kind of contribute. Like, hey, I don't think the arcanist would cast that color of a green spell. It would be a little bit darker than being like, oh, yeah, that's cool. And it was a very collaborative environment where we never really shut a voice out of the room or tried to tell people to kind of stay in their lanes. Like, we wanted to hear from everybody. And it felt like there was a good enough relationship between Zos and Bethesda brand that everybody kind of had that sense day and it was really rewarding and really fulfilling. [00:43:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess that's the important point as well, is it's not just, you know, Zos is well known for eso, but it's not just that. Right. It's also the Bethesda, you know, the. The wider Bethesda brands that you. Sounds like you also got to play with. [00:43:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the. The new project, like getting to see, like, the early recordings and cut that together for, you know, executive presentations and stuff like that, and kind of of, you know, we were. We were waiting, we were eager, you know, when branding was coming to life, like, oh, what's the logo going to be? What's the name going to be? There was an immense amount of excitement and anticipation for it, and it was cool because a lot of the artists, unfortunately, that were on. We had a lead from Media Arts go as the lead lighting artist, Jacqueline Evans, who is just a total powerhouse of, like, just a creative mind and completely brilliant. So she went over there, and then our senior media artist went over to work under Jacqueline as well, Sam Harry, who is another badass. And they were like, lighting artists. So it was interesting to see even how they kind of transitioned their careers from this, like, media art role of, like, taking really awesome photos of the game, really kind of presentable PR shots and things like that, and then translating it to this lighting role over on the Blackbird side. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's cool. And it sounds like, you know, tracking back to your stories of wow. Right. And how in many ways it kind of made you, you know, change you as a person. Right. You know, you said it kind of made you more sociable. It may helped you with public speaking. It kind of, you know, it may. It sort of bought you out of your shell, if you like. It sounds like there's almost a direct line between wow. Affecting you that way and the sort of career direction and. And where you found your sweet spot, both at college and then subsequently at Bully and, you know, at subsequent Shoes. It feels like there's a through line there to me. [00:45:01] Speaker A: I think when an opportunity presents itself, I kind of, you know, I try to grab it by the throat. I really. I kind of go head on. I think there's that cheesy Matthew McConaughey book of, like, finding your green lights and going. And that's kind of like, that's what I did. My green light at college was that job, the client rescuing me from, you know, the Company going under, that was another green light, you know, me going back home and like kind of understanding when was the right time to do that. That was my green light. The, the cannabis company and becoming the general manager kind of overnight green light. I just, I, I, I try to not let things fall into my lap and I try to always kind of be doing something and I always try to kind of keep an open mind of like, what could I be doing next? Like, whether that is direct game production, like producing alongside a concept team or an animation team, or whether that's what I'm doing right now at Bully Entertainment or Blizzard is like I'm facilitating and managing the design teams now. So while it's a temporary contract, it's still just as fulfilling to kind of see all this media come to life. And as a player, to be the looking at it from like the consumer perspective is also like really cool. Like, would I find that amazing? Would I get really excited when I see something like that posted on Instagram or whatever And I kind of help that helps drive like my creative input and my excitement for the media. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Yeah, like you say, overlaps with your love for the hobby as much as the profession. So and in many ways the role that you've, you know, many of the roles that you've taken on are, I guess from an outside perspective are non traditional in that most people think of game developers as programmers or designers or artists or concept artists. But I think your skill set sounds like is very much, you know, diverse and broad and about sort of seeing having a broad, like you say, having a broad enough. Actually I feel very similar, you know, in my skill set having a broad enough knowledge of everything to be dangerous, but not be an expert in anything per se and be okay with that. [00:47:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:19] Speaker B: Be okay with going, hey, I don't need to be the best modeler, but I kind of know what I'm talking about when it comes to modeling and I can help the modelers do a better job, you know, et cetera. Like it sounds like that's who you are as a person. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I've never, I like to say my hobbies are hobbies, you know, I can't, like, I can't sit down and just be like, I'm gonna work on this one thing and that's the one thing I'm gonna do forever and ever and ever. I always like to kind of download and a bunch of the things and see how things tick and understand like the passion for folks behind them and that Kind of helps make me that Swiss army knife. But I also think, you know, that it could come as a. I wouldn't say a detriment, but a hindrance, because a lot of the roles nowadays are looking for the people that just mainlined that one thing, you know, I mentioned earlier of, like, what I would say to my younger self, of, like, finding more of a focus and trying to spread yourself less thin. I have adhd, so, like, I try to kind of live in spite of that. Like, I don't medicate or anything like that. My whole career is built around structure and organization, and ADHD is telling me that I shouldn't be structured or organized. So I feel like I've used it as a superpower to kind of learn these things faster. Like, I commit, you know, I'll take a week and it just, like, deep dive and get completely in the zone for it. And then the next week it's like, oh, what's that? And then go to something else. So I'm always kind of dabbling, but I'm never, like, perfecting. And it feels like the one thing that I've kind of perfected is, like, the organization and structure to make a lot of those things happen. And that's kind of where I've tried to utilize it in my career. It's just being the Swiss army knife, but, like, never really applying the creative element to. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah, but like you say, I think that is a superpower. Right. Being comfortable with spinning many plates and being able to kind of keep track of them and do a good job around them. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:17] Speaker B: You could definitely overload yourself and do too much, for sure. But I think that is a really powerful. Especially in this, with the size of teams and the complexity of, you know, of game dev these days. I think that is a power that's. That's, you know, that's a very strong skill to have. [00:49:32] Speaker A: I agree. And I'm gonna. I'm empathetic. Like, I'm an empath. My wife tells me I care too much, but I think like, like, like having that human element as well is like, I. I looked at my team as cheesy as it sounds like, as family. Like, I had. I knew them, I knew their families. You know, we'd go out to eat together. Like, we had that connection. And so their comfortability in the workspace was, like, my passion to make sure that they were getting things done as comfortably as they needed to. So when things started getting dicey or crazy, I had the experience of, like, account managing creative leads with the Egos the size of the moon at, like, Disney and DreamWorks and Marvel to where I could go to brand and speak up a little bit to them to say, like, hey, that's not going to happen. Or like, hey, let's have a different kind of conversation about how we're going to approach this. But always in defense of the people that I cared about and the people that I kind of looked over and managed to. And I think that that's why, like, when the creative director, we finally found one, Jeremy, he came in, he saw the situation, and he was like, it's your team. I can see that. Like, I don't need to come in and really change anything. So I'm just going to make you the creative services manager. The leads of all of those teams are going to deport directly to you. And if you have any problems, just raise. And then we'll just make sure that we make really good media and that I'm making sure that our message is on brand and what we want it to be. But he's like, you've taken control of it. I'll let you keep it. And that was a really satisfying moment because it showed that not only did this new guy trust me, which got rid of a little bit of the imposter syndrome after a while, it's like, am I doing this right? Nobody's here to criticize me. There is no director that's directly looking over me every day and being able to, like, kind of nitpick anything that I'm doing. So I was kind of running on my own fumes, if you will. And that leads to a lot of, like, doubt of, like, maybe I'm not doing it right and people are just being kind to my situation or something. And him coming in and just being like, this is yours. I see. That was a kind of really fulfilling moment. [00:51:45] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's a great validation of all the work that you put in, all the relationship you put built. Okay. A couple of other questions I love to ask. How does your family relate to your job? [00:52:02] Speaker A: My immediate family, my mom and dad, you know, they absolutely love it. I think they're very, very proud. I think I utilize. I don't have any kids, but I have two nephews that are like, the World 2 Me. And I utilized my game status for some coolness aspect. I worked on a Fortnite character for the Nord. They thought that was kind of cool. We were playing Minecraft one day and he was like, landon, Uncle Landon, do you know about the Ender Dragon? And I was like, sean, I work on video games, of course I know about the Ender Dragon or Ender Dragon. And he, I swear is a smack in the face. He goes, you work on one game was, it's like oh damn, you're right. But I, I, I love kind of like telling them gaming stories. My brother in law is really big into World of Warcraft so like being attached to wow right now is a really huge thing. We showed Sean when he turned 10 years old, we like got him into Azeroth and like showed him around for the first time and it was like a self fulfilling experience. So it's like cool to him as well. And then just kind of every now and again being able to bring home some like cool swag and stuff that you know, you know how we always get all those statues and stuff that we don't need. And I'll just come in and I got you this doom helmet. You know. To be the cool uncle I think has been a lot of fun and I think folks are supportive. I think nowadays folks are concerned, rightfully so, but there's always been a level of excitement. You know, my wife talks about it to folks like outside of like her job and things like that and they all think it's a neat thing. You know, I still a nerd. I think it's a neat thing. Still, it's, it hasn't worn off on me. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Yeah, no, me either. And then how has been a game developer changed you as a gamer? [00:53:55] Speaker A: I think I'm definitely a little more critical of games as I play them. But I think that like I, it almost helps me kind of give the benefit of a doubt to a lot of these, these games that come out. I think I tend to be, I used to be really harsh to a lot of video games and now I can like see how certain things, things kind of probably came together or have some insight into the back end when like maybe somebody releases a video and the team's like why would they do that? That video sucks. It has nothing to do with the gaming. Like I have a little more insight to like why some of those decisions are made. Oftentimes I'm empathetic of it. Sometimes I'm like yeah, it was a, that was a choice. So I think when it comes to like game media, you know, I'm still in touch with the old team. But to be like seeing a really sick trailer trailer and then immediately get on the phone and like text the lead video guy and be like oh my God, you gotta, you gotta, you Gotta watch this one thing and how they did it, and I think we did that a lot at Sauce, too, is like watching other people's trailers and being like, ooh, let's. Let's pull a little bit of that and sprinkle a little bit of that in there. And that was a really cool idea. Really love that transition, things like that. That's more of what I'm looking out for nowadays. [00:55:07] Speaker B: Got it. Yeah, I like that. And then how has being a video game developer changed you as a human? Human. [00:55:16] Speaker A: I think I am much more, I say, is a grounded person. Who says they're grounded. Grounded. I feel like I am a little more grounded than I used to be. I think I had an air of an ego to me back in the day, and it took a lot of trial and tribulations to kind of level set that, to kind of bring me back down to reality. I think I'm 33. I climbed a ladder fairly quickly, as I see it, and I think that that came with a little bit of an ego. And I think because of recent events, because of things like Fort Lauderdale, I kind of put myself in check and learn to be more grateful for the things that I have, especially in the short term, because they're not permanent. You know, it was crazy what happened in July. It was like the Thanos snap and then everything was gone. And it was. It was this comfortability in life that I found. And then afterwards, you know, all that validation, all that communication, it was gone. So I learned, you know, how to kind of savor the things that I have in the short term. [00:56:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, going through some of those trials and tribulations, some people go the opposite way. Right. They're like, that was their fault and, like, I did nothing wrong. I'm kind of impressed that, you know, it's great that you sort of took that time for introspection and kind of to figure out, yeah, maybe I, you know, you pressure the right way. Right. You sort of took that blow on the chin and sort of dust yourself off and figured out a way to kind of keep going. And I think that's. That's important to. To do. You know, this industry can be volatile, as we've just seen. [00:56:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I think, you know, I think it's also like, like, I. After the first two months or so, I think I started seeking help of, like, talking to somebody. I think you don't get blurry vision and go, ah, well, it'll probably go away. You go to an eye doctor and you get some glasses to help correct that. And I started to kind of get negative thoughts. I think, you know, they're still there because of how it all is, but it's more just like talking to somebody really helped kind of bring it into picture of how much worse it could be. And I think that's, like, really, there's. You know, Adlerian philosophy is, like, a lot of the decisions are made off of the choices you make and not necessarily. Necessarily, like, things that have happened in your past. So, like, I'm deaf, but I don't look at it as a detriment. I look at it as, like, when I sleep at night, I don't hear anything, so nothing can wake me up. You know, my adhd, a lot of people will look at that as, like, a bad thing. I look at it as a superpower. I'm able to do, like, six things simultaneously. Okay. And, like, dive into my hobbies and get really passionate about things. And I. You know, same with this situation. Like, things could be. Be so much worse. My job at Blizzard, while it is temporary, it's still something, and it's a part of this IP that I have, you know, this great attachment to. You know, I've got the Frostborn tattooed right there. I've got the Horde symbol tattooed right there. It's something that is a part of my life that I am now attached to, and I'm incredibly grateful for that. [00:58:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great way of looking at it. Yeah. There's a great story, Landon. Like, so many interesting twists and turns and. And, you know, so that's just why I do this, right? I think there's so many of these interesting stories, and yours is definitely one of those. So thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for. Thank you for the conversation. And, yeah, I'm excited to, you know, see. See, you know, what you're working on and. And where you go next. [00:58:44] Speaker A: Right on. Thanks for having me. I think this was a lovely time. Appreciate the chat. And what's your F1 predictions before we go? [00:58:51] Speaker B: Oh, I mean, land. Landon, Lando's gonna win. That's what my. [00:58:55] Speaker A: Lando's gonna win. Y. We got it. Yeah. Excellent. Thanks. All right, man. Thank you so much.